Best Place To Have Stator Rewound?

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seanof30306 wrote:

Is there a publication number on that book OnkelB? I'd sure like to understand why mine is different.

There is, I'll post it when I get off work.

The Clymer manuals are known to be somewhat less than accurate, so I would sure like to have the numbers I posted verified by someone with a Kawasaki FSM that covers 81> models.

seanof30306 wrote:

Once again, my friend, if you simply find me too much of a jerk to be able to communicate with me in a reasonable, non-denigrating, non-insulting manner, I will completely understand if you choose to no longer participate in this thread.

You are only getting the treatment you give others. Every person you had a conflict with (not a short list) was first attacked by you. Insulted, deniggrated, etc. I've been here a long time and the know the people you have insulted are not ones to start conflicts. You, however, do.

seanof30306 wrote:

Earlier, you said:

loudhvx wrote:

At 4000 RPM I measure 56 VAC. The prediction was 54. I guess I wasn't in for any surprise after all. Gee whiz.

So the Cl*mer manual had the information backwards. Absolutely no surprise there. I recall someone predicting the manual was wrong. It's a good thing people are willing to check and verify, rather taking the manual as gospel.

i don't understand what you mean by the Cl*mer manual having things backwards.

You quoted the specs from the 550 manual. They were wrong. The 3-phase specs and 1-phase specs were swapped in the manual.

3-phase, 3-wire is 50VAC.
1-phase, 2-wire is 75VAC.
Manual had it reversed.

Actual measurements were slightly off too.
Actual 3-phase was 56VAC.
Actual 1-phase was 73VAC.

I find it very strange that your 650 stators have the same VAC for both 3-phase and 1-phase as you reported. That seems very suspect. I would double check those 3-phase measurements.

The 1-phase 550 stator measures 73, isn't that what you got? The manual says 75, but also says it's a problem if the reading is "much" lower, not just lower. 50 or 60 would be much lower. 73 is not.

seanof30306 wrote to Motor Head:

Listen, brother. I asked you to go away because you out and out refused to help me resolve the issue of stator output, which I was absolutely, totally determined to attack and resolve before anything else, instead ignoring me completely and insisting I go another way.

I would say going out to the garage and spending time measuring his stator output is not exactly refusing to help.

And by the way, it measured 73VAC on the 1-phase, 2-wire. and the manual says 75. Exactly the same situation on your 650.

The 550 FSM specifies 75 at 4000 RPM for 2-wire.
The 750 Cl*mer specifies 50 at 4000 RPM for the 3-wire.

Because the testing RPM would be arbitrary, the Cl*mer manuals must be simply quoting the FSM specs, and sometimes messing up the specs. They all also say it's only a problem if the voltage is much less. That is why I say the results being 73 is fine.

The reason I say the test is not definitive is because if one of the wires is burnt, or cut, you'll still get the open-load voltage. As soon as you put a load on it, the defect in the wire will result in much less power being generated. Weak wires only show problems when there is actual current flowing. That's where the load test comes in...to show the problems.

seanof30306 wrote:

Is there a publication number on that book OnkelB? I'd sure like to understand why mine is different.

The Clymer manual I have covers the KZ 650 B, C, D, E, F and H models 1977 - 83.

It has Clymer item no. M358 and ISBN no. 0-89287-296-9


There are 3 editions of this manual:

- 1st edition, 2 printings, covering the 1977-79 models.

- 2nd edition, 1 printing, updated in 1980 to include 1980 models.

- 3rd edition, ? printings, updated in 1983 to include 1981-1983 models.

I have the 3rd edition, 13th printing - you may have a 2nd edition which would explain the differences.

Btw, don't know if it makes any difference, but I'm in Europe.

loudhvx wrote:

You are only getting the treatment you give others. Every person you had a conflict with (not a short list) was first attacked by you. Insulted, deniggrated, etc. I've been here a long time and the know the people you have insulted are not ones to start conflicts. You, however, do.

Well, since you a) are clearly determined to fight here, and b) are now making some pretty outrageous (and totally false and untrue) accusations, I call bullshit on you, and demand that you provide proof.

Prior to this thread, I recall having only one conflict in my three years on this board, and that was one I absolutely did not start, and the member I got into that conflict with had so many conflicts with other members that he left the board for over a year.

Prove your point.


loudhvx wrote:

You quoted the specs from the 550 manual. They were wrong. The 3-phase specs and 1-phase specs were swapped in the manual.

3-phase, 3-wire is 50VAC.
1-phase, 2-wire is 75VAC.
Manual had it reversed.

I don't recall ever quoting any KZ550 specs in this thread about my KZ650 prior to your making that "Clymer has it backwards" statement. I've gone back and looked to make sure, and don't see it. I was going to quote KZ550 specs to prove you were wrong when you insisted your KZ550's stator output was lower than what the Clymer manual called for (it isn't, it's greater), but I never posted anything from that KZ550 manual until after you clarified your "Clymer has it backwards" statement.

I think you knew what was coming after you made your erroneous claim, but I didn't post any KZ550 specs that were "backwards", and only went to the KZ550 manual in the first place because you were insisting that my stator outputs were irrelevant and that your bike charged fine with stator output that was lower than what Clymer calls for (it isn't, it's higher)


loudhvx wrote:

Actual measurements were slightly off too.
Actual 3-phase was 56VAC.
Actual 1-phase was 73VAC.

I find it very strange that your 650 stators have the same VAC for both 3-phase and 1-phase as you reported. That seems very suspect. I would double check those 3-phase measurements.

The 1-phase 550 stator measures 73, isn't that what you got? The manual says 75, but also says it's a problem if the reading is "much" lower, not just lower. 50 or 60 would be much lower. 73 is not.

I have no idea where you got those numbers. Certainly not from me. If I'd gotten 73 VAC out of my single phase stator, I would've danced a jig and kissed mechanic #3 right on the face (OK, probably not, but I would've been pretty happy).

In all of this back and forth over the KZ550 stator output, my only reason for going there at all was I'd hoped if I could show you that you were mistaken in your belief that your bike charged fine with a stator output that was significantly lower than what Clymer called for when in fact, your stator puts out more than what Clymer calls for, and that your insistence that your bike's stator output proves that my bike's low stator output is irrelevant is also wrong, I could get you to focus your considerable knowledge and experience on resolving my bike's problems.

I've now come to the sad conclusion that there is just no reaching you, as proven by the fact that you've completely ignored the fact that your insistance that your stator puts out less than Clymer call for has been proven wrong. Instead, you continue to fight, and I just have no interest in that.

I just want to ride my bike, man, and fighting with some dude on the internet just has no appeal to me, especially with someone who simply cannot be reached with reason, facts, logic, and even incontrovertable proof.

Thank you very much for the help you've tried to offer here, and the best of luck to you.

OnkelB wrote:

Reading the resistance of the 3-phase stator you should see 0.48 - 0.72 ohms between any pair of yellow wires - still with the meter set on R x 1 and the stator disconnected. (Table 15, pg. 276 in the Clymer).

Stator #6, the 3-phase stator off of Fitty has .9-1.0 ohms' resistance. Not ideal, but not as far off the mark as it appeared to be when we were looking for .4 ohms' resistance.


OnkelB wrote:

At 4,000 rpm the 3-phase stator should only put out app. 50 V between any two phases (Table 15, pg. 276).

We got 63 VAC, 13 VAC more than the spec calls for. Seems a little odd, given the higher than spec resistance. Gonna recheck to be sure.

If those numbers are correct, and our testing results are accurate, though, that resolves the issue of stator out put.

I'm going over to mechanic #3's shop tomorrow night and we'll recheck those values, and I'm gonna take a close look at both of those Clymer manuals I have.

Also, I had a conversation (at last!) with Rick from Rick's Motorsport Electrics today. He had some interesting things to say. I'll post it up in a bit.

seanof30306 wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

seanof30306 wrote:

BTW, you keep posting the VAC output of your stator at 3000 rpm. Why not take 5 minutes and check it's output at 4000 rpm? You may be in for a surprise.

I don't think there'll be any surprises since i viewed the whole thing on a scope at many RPMs.

At 1500 I get 21 VAC.
At 3000 I get 45 VAC.
At 6000 I get 71 VAC.

Right,

But, since the KZ550 service manual I downloaded calls for VAC at 4000, that would be the relevant number to this conversation.

5 minutes with a multimeter is all it takes.

Here is where you quoted the 550 manual. So I guess your Bullshit has been called.

And on 1-phase stators the number IS lower, just like in your case, as I said.

You said your 3-phase was putting out the same as the 1-phase. Well that means the 3-phase is putting out way more than it should... or it means you made a mistake in measuring or forgot what the result was.

Now you say it's 63 and it's resolved. Gee maybe the fifty bike wasn't bad advice after all. Your welcome.

Hmmm, I seem to recall predictions that it was a non issue several days ago... looks like you are your own worst enemy when it comes to going in wrong directions. I would say it is you who needs the good luck.

Do you realize 2 of your electrical threads are active?
Check it out,(if you want) as there are replies.
You can turn on a function to be notified to replies in a post.
And please be less confrontational, the guy's here have really had their patents tested.
Really if in your first thread some of the advice had been followed? Most likely you would be asking what is a good replacement tire? Or maybe a question about re-gearing my LOVELY KZ650!

seanof30306 wrote:

You still insisted i was wrong, and even though there are only two part numbers for rotors for every single year of KZ650 that used a stator/rotor charging system, you still insisted I was wrong, saying the parts fiches are screwed up.

I spent just 5 minutes and found 3 part numbers for 650 rotors. 21050-1003, 1015, and 1041. That's not including the 1977 21007-033.

I didn't say the parts fiches were all screwed up. I said the cross reference charts are screwed up. I said the fiches are better, but not perfect.

loudhvx wrote:

Here is where you quoted the 550 manual. So I guess your Bullshit has been called.

And on 1-phase stators the number IS lower, just like in your case, as I said.

You said your 3-phase was putting out the same as the 1-phase. Well that means the 3-phase is putting out way more than it should... or it means you made a mistake in measuring or forgot what the result was.

Now you say it's 63 and it's resolved. Gee maybe the fifty bike wasn't bad advice after all. Your welcome.

Hmmm, I seem to recall predictions that it was a non issue several days ago... looks like you are your own worst enemy when it comes to going in wrong directions. I would say it is you who needs the good luck.

As usual, you attack before reading.

I called bullshit on your personal attack, where you said:

loudhvx wrote:

You are only getting the treatment you give others. Every person you had a conflict with (not a short list) was first attacked by you. Insulted, deniggrated, etc. I've been here a long time and the know the people you have insulted are not ones to start conflicts. You, however, do.

I repeat: To the best of my recollection, prior to this thread, I have only had conflict with one person on this board. He started it, and he is the one with a history of conflict, so much so that he left this board for well over a year. What's more, the whole argument with him stemmed from my saying that after 3 stators and 3 voltage regulators, it was pretty clear that there was an underlying problem. He insisted that statement was a fallacy, as even though the parts came off of bikes that were charging, and even though the parts tested good on the bench before going on my bike, and tested bad on the bench after coming off my bike shortly thereafter, the only way to be sure was to buy new parts.

I did, by the way, and they were promptly eaten. Guess we know who was right there, don't we?

So once again, you made a slanderous and defamatory statement about me. PROVE IT, or apologize.

As far as stator output specs, you prove my point for me.

I said I had a KZ550 manual.

I said it called for VAC @ 4000 rpm

But I never said what it called for. I quoted NO specs from the 550 manual.

They could not have been "reversed", because I never said what they were, so once again, you have been proven wrong.

As far as the rest of your blah-blah-blah, I'm just over it. I'm sick of wasting my time going back and showing how the rash statements you make without bothering to even read or think are just wrong.

All you want to do is fight.

I'd hoped I could show you through facts and reason that you were wrong and you would quit, but you only fight more.

Guess it was naive of me to think you might come around.

And as far as my stator output? All along, you have insisted the Clymer manual is BS, the charging values in the Clymer manual are BS, that your bike makes less power than what the Clymer manual calls for, proving it is BS, blah-blah-blah. All proven wrong by one nice guy who took the time to look instead of bluster and attack.

Rather than be a blowhard, OnkelB posted the correct values for three-phase KZ650 ststor, which resolved the issue.

I'm sorry that your rash, angrily-spewed and often wildly innacurate words don't carry the same weight with me that the specifications in the most widely-accepted aftermarket repair manual for these motorcycles do, but that's just the way it is.

Now please go away and find someone else to fight with.

loudhvx wrote:

After reading the last few posts more closely, I guess Motor Head and I can't help you. Hopefully someone more knowledgable will chime in.

You said that more than a week ago, yet you keep coming back and fighting.

Go away.

OK, so getting away from all the drama, and getting back to the issue at hand, I finally got a call back from Rick of Rick's Motorsport Electrics (the ones who rewound stator #4).

I took notes as best as I could, but he didn't have a lot of patience with being slowed down, and i didn't want to lose him.

He said he's never seen a rotor that has been demagnetized from being dropped or damaged that didn't have cracks in it, and said having put three rotors on my bike, none having cracks or chips, I could be confident that the rotor was not the problem.

He said the resistance test was an indication of stator performance, but you determined whether a stator was good, or not, with a ground fault test, running one probe of the meter to one of the output wires, and the other probe to one of the steel lamination stacks. An infinity reading indicates a good stator. You repeat that on each output wire, and must get an infinity reading on all of them.

He said he found it strange that my three phase stator shows higher resistance than what the Clymer manual calls for but puts out 126% of what the manual call for (63 VAC when it calls for 50 VAC). He said normally, the higher the resistance, the lower the output, and in my case, with resistance that is a higher than the upper parameter of what the Clymer manual calls for, I should see stator output that is lower than what the manual calls for. He said I should recheck those specifications and my readings.

He said the VDC rising to 13.6, then dropping to 13.3, then climbing to 13.6, then dropping to 13.3, etc., is definitely the RR working. The single phase RR on the bike that was doing that is one I bought from Z1 Enterprises, and he said he is the supplier of those, so he knows for sure that the set point on the RR is 14.5-14.8 VDC, and it should not be shorting to ground before that.

However, since we switched the whole charging system over to another, three-phase system, and the stator on that three-phase charging system appears to be putting out more than spec, and that bike is alsoo topping out at 13.6 VDC and dropping back to 13.3 VDC before repeating the cycle, it is reasonable to assume the problem is not the RR. To completely rule that out, he said I need to do a charging system isolation test.

To do that, he said you disconnect the stator from the battery.

You then take another, fully-charged motorcycle battery that you know is good, run the red/white wire from the RR to the outboard battery positive on the alternate battery, and run the black wire from the RR to the outboard battery negative on the alternate battery.

The bike will run on it's own battery, but the charging system will charge to the alternate battery, effectively isolating the RR from being affected by any battery or wiring problems or load restrictions downstream on the bike.

He said the bike should now charge to 14.5-14.8 VDC, then drop back to no less than 13.5 VDC when the RR shorts to ground, then climb back to 14.5-14.6 VDC, etc. If it does not do that, then the problem lies in the RR. If it does do that, then the charging system can be ruled out as the problem.

A couple of things I'm not clear on:

He didn't address the brown wire on the three-phase charging system, and I didn't think to ask him till we were off the phone.

As I understand it, if the brown wire is not hooked up, the RR will not short to ground. Would simply hooking the brown wire up to the positive battery terminal be sufficient?

Second, he was very specific about "outboard battery positive", and "outboard battery negative", correcting me each time I said "positie", or "negative". Am I missing something, or is he just being very specific?

Third, he said to use a motorcycle battery as the alternate battery. Is there any reason you couldn't use a good, fully-charged automotive battery for this test? I'm just thinking some schlub trying to figure out what is wrong with his bike probably doesn't have another motorcycle battery laying around, but car bateries are pretty easy to come by. I didn't think to ask Rick till we were off the phone.