Best Place To Have Stator Rewound?

As previously mentioned, this is why the Current Measurements in AMPs is Important. How much Amperage is being consumed by the system when running, as apposed to what is being made by the charging System as a Whole. This includes Switches/ connectors/ grounds/ as well as the stator and R/R.
That sounds like the battery went down pretty fast for some thing with the Voltage Specs you posted.
Got a way to measure the AMPs properly?

Edit: If you have not already you might read through this
kzrider.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&...ew&catid=4&id=388730

For a while I found this thread educational. Than I found it entertaining. Now I just find it pathetic. I have noticed that some of the EE experts bailed out early. Lou, you should know better than to stick with something like this, this long. :laugh: This thread went from "Dr Phil" to "Jerry Springer" to "WWF" to "UFC" :ohmy: :laugh: SHISH, sit down, take a load off, take a quaalude :woohoo:

Motor Head wrote:

As previously mentioned, this is why the Current Measurements in AMPs is Important. How much Amperage is being consumed by the system when running, as apposed to what is being made by the charging System as a Whole. This includes Switches/ connectors/ grounds/ as well as the stator and R/R.
That sounds like the battery went down pretty fast for some thing with the Voltage Specs you posted.
Got a way to measure the AMPs properly?

Edit: If you have not already you might read through this
kzrider.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&...ew&catid=4&id=388730

With all the problems I've been having, I want some very precise and detailed monitoring of my electrical system.

For volts, I'm looking at this:

www.digitalmeter.com/cgi-bin/webshop.cgi?config=ent-datel

or this

www.cyclemaxohio.com/inc/sdetail/4231

For amps, I'm looking at this:

s73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/pgsmick/...rrent=AmmeterKit.jpg

Here's a video on YouTube of it:



The YouTube video shows the version of it he makes that is mounted inside the tach. He has another version that is externally mounted.

I'm thinking of mounting both gauges inside a 2 5/8" gauge cup, or in a box I could mount to the handlebar risers. I really like this mounting cup, but it's only 2 1.16", and may not be big enough to hold bot the voltmeter and the ammeter:

www.egauges.com/vdo_acce.asp?Subgroup=Campro_Cup&Manf=All

I'm corresponding with the ammeter guy now. I'm not really crazy about the bar display, I'd prefer to have a digital display, like the voltmeter(s) have.

Those are SWWEEEEEEEET. I'l have to look into those. I also like the gear indicator that someone here has built that looks like that.

KZ250LTD wrote:

seanof30306 wrote:

Still, 20 miles seems pretty quick for a charging system to go dead.

Have you checked to make sure you aren't grounding out on the frame anywhere you shouldn't be or having excess draw from another area?

More times than I count. Most recently, a completely different wiring harness was gone over and cleaned and replaced till the voltage drops at every termination point are negligible, and installed on the bike.

If the RR checks out as working OK, then we move on to looking for draws. While we'll definitely look into them, I'm pretty confident in the main harness and the headlight circuit.

I think there's an outside chance something may be screwy in the starter, or the wiring to it, but the draw problem I have is constant while the bike is running, and nonexistent when the bike is not running. It will start right up after sitting for weeks, so there's no unswitched draw.

As I understand it, the starter only draws when it is engaged. If that is correct, while there may be a problem, or problems with the starter/wiring, I don't think they are THE problem.

In the past, the kill switch has had 19-30 ohms' resistance, so I think it's time to take a hard look at the kill switch.

We'll look at the ignition switch and the left hand switches as well.

Before we go there, though, we need to get the charging system isolation test run, and the RR eliminated as a suspect (if it can, indeed be eliminated).

If you unhook your battery, what is your resistance from positive wire to frame ground first with key off then with key on/ lights off, then key on lights on? That can immediately eliminate or verify any wires shorted to ground though it won't tell you which one if you do have a short.

A cheap ammeter is all you need to verify your total system draw. Just hook it series at the battery pos. terminal and check the same tests as above looking for excessive draw. You will add one test here though. AFTER your have run the engine off tests, you unhook the stator wires from the r/r and start the engine, checking the current again. If you don't have a heavy draw any where, hook the stator back up again. If you then note a positive charge on the ammeter, the charging system and lights/ ignition system are eliminated. That leaves you with the starter/battery.

You have stated you believe there may be problems in addition to the stator circuit. If that is the case, STOP and isolate the system that's giving you excessive draw before you continue. The reason I say this is even if you get your charge circuit perfect if you don't fix any current problems, you'll immediately ruin it and you're just chasing your tail down the drain.

I hope you can visualize what I'm saying, if not, I'm in T-Town four days a week. PM me and maybe a different set of eyes can see what's hiding from your's.

OK, 2 grand later and the Death Wobble is resolved on the Jeep, now we're back on that beautiful, red, classic @#$%^&*!!! KZ650.

Onkel B, I thought the page number in the Clymer manual you'd listed for the table with the three-phase charging values was a typo, but I was thumbing through the manual the other day and realized it wasn't. I had no idea there was a supplement in the back. Both of my manuals have it. That removes any slight doubt I might have had about those values. The stator is now definitely checked off the list.

jjdwoodman, I completely agree with you about not reconnecting the charging system after we do the charging system isolation test and confirm (hopefully) that the RR is working properly until we have found and resolved the problem(s). Clearly SOMETHING has been eating the previous 5 stators and 5 regulators and and 3 batteries. Confirming that the stator and RR are working properly at the moment is a victory, but the goal here is to find out what ate all the others.

Here's the immediate plan (assuming the RR passes the charging system isolation test).

We'll continue to have the charging system feed the battery from that beautiful, red @#$%^&*!!! KZ650, but leave it disconnected from the rest of the bike's wiring.

When it's running, we'll power the bike with a good, fully charged battery.

When it's not running, we'll power the wiring with a fully charged car battery.

I'm a little confused on the ammeter advice. I think it's critical to be able to get accurate measurement on what the bike is drawing. Earlier, someone (I think it was motorhead) said the best way to do that was with a clamp-on ammeter. I started looking for one, but realized all the less expensive ones measured AC amps, but not DC amps, and DC amps is what I need to measure, isn't it?

I went to Harbor Freight, which had the cheapest clamp on ammeters, one for 12.99 and two others for 19.99 (each), but none measured DC amps.

I went to Sears, but the least expensive one they had was 69.99. I checked their website, and they have this one for 59.99:

www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03482369000P?prdNo=22

Then I looked at amazon.com. This one says it measues DC amps in the product description, but when I zoom in on the pic, I don't see a switch position for DC amps.

www.amazon.com/W-Sperry-6-Function-12-Ra...=1282877166&sr=1-103

There were also a bunch of specialized automotive clip on ammeters. This one says: "The #685 is ideal for measuring current on: parasitic drains, fuel injection systems, fuel pumps, charging systems, electric motors and more."

www.amazon.com/Electronic-Specialties-Cu...2875834&sr=1-2-fkmr0

I don't know what to get.

Also, while I was at Harbor freight, I saw this:

www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-onboard-ba...ad-tester-65928.html

weatherproof, and 5.99 made it irresistable to me. We'll see what happens>

OK, new update:

With the single-phase charging system still on the bike, the charging system was isolated from the rest of the bike's wiring. The bike is powered by one battery, while the charging system feeds another.

Previously, when the bike was revved to 4,000 rpm and held there, it would slowly climb to 13.6 volts, drop back to 13.3, slowly rising back to 13.5, and continually cycling between the two.

Now, with no other change than the charging system being isolated, when held at a steady 4000 rpm, it slowly rises to 14.1-14.2 VDC, and appears to be still climbing past that at a VERY slow pace, but I can't stand having it rev at 4000 rpm unloaded for so long.

Wiring directly from the RR to the battery with new wire yeilds virtually identical results.

To me, this seems to indicate the RR is working properly. I'm a little concerned that it's not getting up to the 14.5-14.8 point where Rick from Rick's Motorsport Electrics said the RR should be cycling, and that it is still slow to get to that 14.1-14.2 VDC point. Still, this is the single phase stator that outputs only 68VAC when it should be outputting 75VAC, and there's always the possibility the battery could have been a little down, too.

Next, we'll put the three phase charging system on the bike and repeat the test.

Sorry, I didn't see your last post.

In the realm of really cheap I know of two decent options.

The easiest is to see if you can use a battery load tester.

You can usually borrow one from Autozone or O'riellky's but only if you use it in the parking lot. If you know what you want to do you can usually fully test an isolated charge system in just a few minutes. The upside of this way is you can put a load on the alternator/rr circuit to see both it's current and voltage outputs at the same time.

Then you have the option of garage leisure. Go to a parts store or TSC or Atwood's and buy and ammeter like you would put in a triple guage mount. It won't give you real precise readings but that's okay. you're just looking to see that your loads don't swing that needle very far either direction from the middle. The type of thing you're looking for is pretty major and should show up on one of those. Just remember you have to wire it in series with the load you're looking at and it can't have any loop around the meter.

The cheap meters that measure clamp on ac current could be used to measure current coming out of the alternator before it gets to the rr, but yeah, they're nearly worthless of automotive.

jjdwoodman wrote:

Sorry, I didn't see your last post.

In the realm of really cheap I know of two decent options.

The easiest is to see if you can use a battery load tester.

You can usually borrow one from Autozone or O'riellky's but only if you use it in the parking lot. If you know what you want to do you can usually fully test an isolated charge system in just a few minutes. The upside of this way is you can put a load on the alternator/rr circuit to see both it's current and voltage outputs at the same time.

Then you have the option of garage leisure. Go to a parts store or TSC or Atwood's and buy and ammeter like you would put in a triple guage mount. It won't give you real precise readings but that's okay. you're just looking to see that your loads don't swing that needle very far either direction from the middle. The type of thing you're looking for is pretty major and should show up on one of those. Just remember you have to wire it in series with the load you're looking at and it can't have any loop around the meter.

The cheap meters that measure clamp on ac current could be used to measure current coming out of the alternator before it gets to the rr, but yeah, they're nearly worthless of automotive.

I sent you a PM

OK, so the three phase charging system is installed, and passed the charging system isolation test. Went over the harness again making sure every connection looked good and rechecked the grounds, then hooked it back up.

We put one of those Kurakyn LED Battery gauges on the bike. It has two red LEDs and two orange LEDs which indicate insufficient charging. three green LEDs that indicate proper charging, and two yellow LEDs that indicate overcharging.



Since installing it, I've seen the bike operating with both the red and the orange LEDs lit up at idle. When operated off-idle for a short time, the first green light comes on, and stays lit, but the second and third green lights never come on, no matter how long I ride, or how high I rev it.

I did a lot of research, and decided I wanted a clamp multimeter that read AC and DC volts, and AC and DC amps. Most of the ones I found were over a hundred bucks. The best I could find locally was this one from Sears for 59.99. www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_034823...kNo=21&blockType=G21

There was one on ebay for 39.99, but with shipping, I would've been saving only 10 bucks. I also found another one on ebay for 13.99, but the ad was written in broken English, and it had to ship from China, and would've taken a week, or more to get here. I decided to get the one from Sears.

First I checked my battery. A couple of days ago, I'd put it in a plastic bag to protect me from any acid that might spill, and shook the hell out of it. Then I topped all the cells to the fill line with distilled water and let it sit on the Battery Tender Jr. for a couple of days. The light on the Battery Tender was green, so I put it to the test.

I'd bought a small hydrometer from O'Reilly's, but it didn't reach far enough down into the cells to pick up any acid. Back to O'Reilly's for a short piece of clear tubing, and it worked. After a few minutes sitting there with the high beam on to remove the surface charge, I tested each cell with the hydrometer. All cells tested either 3 or 4 balls floating.

Next, I put my new, high tech multimeter on it. 12.9 volts. I pronounced the battery good and moved on.

Next I put my alligator clips on the multimeter leads, started the bike, and clipped the leads onto the battery. Idling at 1300 rpm, with both red and both orange LEDs on the Kuyarkyn battery gauge lit, I got 12.5 volts.

I revved the bike to 4000 rpm and held it there. The volts on the gauge began to rise immediately, quickly reaching 13 volts, where the first green LED on the LED battery gauge lit up. Within 15 seconds, it rose to 13.5 volts. The manual says the LEDS on the battery gauge are supposed to come on in .5 volt increments, but the second one didn't light up. Another 30 seconds, and it had reached 14 volts, and again, no more LEDS lit up. It took another 15 seconds for it to go to 14.1 volts, 15 more for 14.2, and another 30 seconds for 14.3 volts. I left it at 4000 rpm for another 60 seconds, but it would go no higher than 14.3 volts.

I repeated the test at 3000 rpm, instead of 4000, and got virtually the same results.

Even at 2000 rpm, it only takes a 10 seconds or so for it to reach 13 volts and light that first green LED.

Next, I took the bike to jjdwoodman, who is remodeling a house less than two miles from where I live, and who really knows electrical systems. He took the gauge and did some testing. Here's some of what he got.

With the key off, there is no draw.

With the bike running, the bike's total draw is 10amps, and is discharging at .3 amps. That discharge almost immeadately turns into a charge when you rev it just a little bit.

Measuring from the wire that runs from the battery to the relay, The ignition is pulling 3.9 amps at idle, and rises to 7.8 amps at 4000 rpm, which I found strange, as I've seen it said over and over that the Dyna S uses more power at idle and less at higher rpms. Measuring on the other side of the relay, though, it draws 3.9 amps at idle, and drops to 3.2 amps at 4000 rpm. I'm confused.

Several pages back, I detailed how it started perfectly when I picked the bike up. 10 miles later the starter was rotating much more slowly, and by the time I got it home 10 miles later, the starter wouldn't turn over at all. After letting it sit for an hour or so, though, the starter spun perfectly.

Jjdwoodman said he suspected there might be a problem with the starter when it heats up. using the clamp meter, he measured the starter's draw at 55 amps. We shut it off and tried again, and it drew 64 amps. We let the bike sit there at idle for 5 minutes or so, shut it off and tried it again. It drew 117 amps. This would seem to confirm his suspicion. I'm going to swap over the starter from Fitty (the 50.00 parts bike) and see how that does. Man, that is turning out to be one well spent 50 bucks.

While the bike was running, another guy who was there put his hand within a few inches of the #4 plug wire while the bike was running and got a shock. This seemed strange, as he didn't touch it. The wires are Accel, and I don't see any obvious cracks. Is this normal?

So far, it seems the phantom draw that's been sucking the battery dry while it's running and killing stators, RRs and batteries is nowhere to be found. Either mechanic #3 unknowingly eliminated it in this last round of checking/cleaning, or it has simply not reared it's ugly head yet. Only time will tell.

That clamp multimeter is pretty awesome. being able to tell exactly how much a wire is drawing would seem to be an invaluable tool in seeking out and destroying electrical problems. I'm surprised more people don't have/recommend them.