Best Place To Have Stator Rewound?

loudhvx wrote:

seanof30306 wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

seanof30306 wrote:

BTW, you keep posting the VAC output of your stator at 3000 rpm. Why not take 5 minutes and check it's output at 4000 rpm? You may be in for a surprise.

I don't think there'll be any surprises since i viewed the whole thing on a scope at many RPMs.

At 1500 I get 21 VAC.
At 3000 I get 45 VAC.
At 6000 I get 71 VAC.

Right,

But, since the KZ550 service manual I downloaded calls for VAC at 4000, that would be the relevant number to this conversation.

5 minutes with a multimeter is all it takes.

Yes, which is why I provided enough information to estimate what it would be at 4000 RPM. I'll do the math for you then.

Based on interpolating a linear approximation, the predicted value for the 3-phase KZ550 would be about 54 VAC at 4000 RPM.

It's been several years since I did the original measurements, but let's see what we get today (way more than 5 minutes, by the way, when the bike is not already out and running).

At 4000 RPM I measure 56 VAC. The prediction was 54. I guess I wasn't in for any surprise after all. Gee whiz.

So the Cl*mer manual had the information backwards. Absolutely no surprise there. I recall someone predicting the manual was wrong. It's a good thing people are willing to check and verify, rather taking the manual as gospel.

And the 1-phase puts out higher open-load VAC (about 75 VAC as measured by Motor Head) than the 3-phase. Hmmm. No surprise there.

So again, I have the 3-phase. Motor Head has the 1-phase. The results for both are shown.

loudhvx wrote:

So again, I have the 3-phase. Motor Head has the 1-phase. The results for both are shown.

Right,

So, is your stator a three-wire, or a two-wire?

How about a simple, direct, non passive-aggressive answer? It's a simple quetion, with two possible answers:

a) three wire

b) two wire

seanof30306 wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

So again, I have the 3-phase. Motor Head has the 1-phase. The results for both are shown.

Right,

So, is your stator a three-wire, or a two-wire?

How about a simple, direct, non passive-aggressive answer? It's a simple quetion, with two possible answers:

a) three wire

b) two wire

How about you read the thing you actually quoted.
" I have the 3-phase." If you are saying that you don't know that a 3-phase has 3 wires, then I guess there is no way to help you. And you are certainly, then, not qualified to argue about charging systems, but yet, you do. Nice.

And I am only pissy because you started that precedence. So far you have pissed off everyone that has tried to help you, with no remorse. I'm sure that's the way you treated everyone you've dealt with.

Hmmm, coincidence that Rick's basically won't take your calls?? Coincidence that the stator rewind shop did not want to deal with you? He probably made that decision after his first conversation with you. Coincidence that half of my PM's from other people are about your attitude? Not likely.

OK, so passive-aggressive answers have now moved to personal attacks.

Clearly, you know where I'm going with this, which is why you don't want to give the answer to my question, and why you keep jacking the intensity up.

And, if you find me to be such a jerk, why keep coming back?

And I'm not arguing with you about electrical systems. All I've done is decide that I will focus on the core problem of low stator output and high stator resistance before looking anywhere else, and asked, even plead with you and motorhead to help me determine that. You bothresponded by refusing to even acknowledge what I was saying, instead simply repeating the same thing over and over, and try as I might to explain to you that those things had nothing to do with stator output or resistance, you both just kept repeating like my nephew's saying IwannaIwannaIwannaIwannaIwannaIwanna ... when he's having a meltdown.

Failing to get you to do that, and being unwilling to lose your expertise and experience without exhausting every possible avenue of recruiting your help, I have decided to apply logic to your insistence that the values specified in the manual(s) are irrelevent and that your bike's stator output proves that in the hope that the analytical, logic- craving mindset of most technical people can be engaged.

It appears, however, that you will do whatever it takes to avoid being confronted with that logic (sort of like VGR in the first Star Trek movie), and will instead offer ever-more obtuse answers and ever-escallating personal attcks, alluding to all the pms you're getting to give the impression that everyone is with you, and against me, etc.

My friend, if I am such a jerk, then please, do not allow me to kill your buzz. If you choose to stop responding here, you certainly won't be getting any PMs from me asking you to come back. I'll honestly thank you for your efforts (before you shut down and started becoming ever-more intractable, uncivil, and now insulting), and even forgive the personal shots you've begun taking, without even bothering to point out that I haven't had the slightest uncivil thing to say to or about you, as clearly evidenced by my writings in this thread, which are there for all to see.

If you choose not to go, however, than simple, direct answers to a simple direct question would be most appreciated:

Since you've now said you stator has three wires, the next question is: Earlier, you you seemed to allude to the manual(s) having things reversed between the values for two and three wire stators. Am I correct in that? If so, what values are you saying the manual(s) call for from two wire KZ550 stators, and three wire KZ550 stators?

I don't know where you were going with your question, other than being wrong.

There was no surprise. I don't even know what surprise you were rying to predict.


3-phase has lower open-load voltage than 1-phase. Clearly. And so the manual is wrong. You were trying to say otherwise.

Very simple.

Once again, my friend, if you simply find me too much of a jerk to be able to communicate with me in a reasonable, non-denigrating, non-insulting manner, I will completely understand if you choose to no longer participate in this thread.

Earlier, you said:

loudhvx wrote:

At 4000 RPM I measure 56 VAC. The prediction was 54. I guess I wasn't in for any surprise after all. Gee whiz.

So the Cl*mer manual had the information backwards. Absolutely no surprise there. I recall someone predicting the manual was wrong. It's a good thing people are willing to check and verify, rather taking the manual as gospel.

i don't understand what you mean by the Clymer manual having things backwards.

Reading the KZ 650 Clymer manual there clearly are different values for the 1-phase (2 wires) and 3-phase (3 wires) stator.

Reading the resistance of the 1-phase stator - ohmmeter set to R x 1 and measuring between the two yellow wires with the stator disconnected - you should see app. 0.4 ohms. (Pg. 154 in the Clymer)

Reading the resistance of the 3-phase stator you should see 0.48 - 0.72 ohms between any pair of yellow wires - still with the meter set on R x 1 and the stator disconnected. (Table 15, pg. 276 in the Clymer).


At 4,000 rpm the 1-phase stator should output app. 75 V AC (pg. 151 in the Clymer, procedure described there).

However, still at 4,000 rpm the 3-phase stator should only put out app. 50 V between any two phases (Table 15, pg. 276).

Hope this helps you some.


Btw, obviously I'm assuming you have the same Clymer manual as me, the one that covers KZ 650's 1977-83..?

seanof30306 wrote:

Stator #6 is the three-phase stator off of Fitty. It, along with Fitty's rotor (rotor #3) are currently installed on that @#$%^&!!! KZ650, and only making 63 VAC @ 4000 rpm.

So, according to the above mentioned Table 15, pg. 276 I'd say that stator is fully functional.


seanof30306 wrote:

The regulator/rectifier that came off of Fitty (regulator/rectifier #5)has yet to be installed on the bike. It is, by the way, a 5 wire regulator (3 yellow, 1 black, and 1 brown).

I do realize that you haven't installed this reg/rec yet, but this has me confused as there should be 6 wires for your 3-phase setup: 3 yellow, a brown, a black and a red/white (or just white). The 3 yellow should connect to the stator phases, the brown is the voltage sense wire and should connect to a switched 12V source and the black is ground - but where is the output wire (red/white or white) that should connect to the battery + terminal?

OnkelB wrote:

Reading the Clymer manual there clearly are different values for the 1-phase (2 wires) and 3-phase (3 wires) stator.

Reading the resistance of the 1-phase stator - ohmmeter set to R x 1 and mesuring between the two yellow wires with the stator disconnected - you should see app. 0.4 ohms. (Pg. 154 in the Clymer)

Reading the resistance of the 3-phase stator you should see 0.48 - 0.72 ohms between any pair of yellow wires - still with the meter set on R x 1 and the stator disconnected. (Table 15, pg. 276 in the Clymer).


At 4,000 rpm the 1-phase stator should output app. 75 V AC (pg. 151 in the Clymer, procedure described there).

However, still at 4,000 rpms the 3-phase stator should only put out app. 50 V between any two phases (Table 15, pg. 276).

Hope this helps you some.


Btw, obviously I'm assuming you have the same Clymer manual as me, the one that covers 1977-83..?

Actually, that does help a lot OnkleB, in more ways than one.

The KZ550 Manual that I found online has it reversed, calling for 50 VAC out of the 2-wire, and 75 VAC out of the 3-wire. I assumed that was what loudvhx meant when he said Clymer had it reversed (although I'm not sure the manual I found online is a Clymer). It does cover 1979-1985, though.)

vitek.vellum.cz/manualy/KZ550.pdf

(page 180 of the manual, page 190 of the pdf)

So, we've at last established that the three-wire KZ550 stator should be outputting about 50 VAC @ 4000 rpm.

The reason I've been focusing on KZ550 stator output, when my bike is a KZ650, is I hope to show loudvhx that stator output is relevant.

Earlier in this discussion, when it was focused on my bike's getting 68 VAC stator output @4000 rpm from the one-phase charging system, and 63 VAC stator output with the three-phase charging system, loudvhx insisted the stator output specifications outlined in the FSM and Clymer manuals were irrelevant, and offered his bikes' outputs as proof of that:

loudhvx wrote:

On my 550's, I only get 45vAC at 3000 RPM on each pair of yellow wires on the stator. I get about 71vAC at 6000 RPM. I would say 60-something volts at 4000 RPM is doing good.

Yet we now know that loudvhx is getting 56 VAC @4000 rpm, which is actually greater than what the manual calls for, so of course his bikes charge properly, they are getting the correct voltage (and more) from the stator, which is the mouth of the river, so to speak.

If anything, this knowledge further convinces me that I will not move forward in this process until the issue of stator output is addressed and resolved.

My FSM is for a 1979 model, which calls for 75 VAC stator output @ 4000 rpm, but that is for the single phase charging system that came on the '79 model.

My Clymer manual covers all KZ650s, and also calls for 75 VAC stator output @ 4000 rpm, and no more than .4 ohms resistance, but that specification is the same for all post-1977 models, both single phase, and three phase. The Clymer manual that came with Fitty (the 50.00 '81 LTD parts bike) is different from my other Clymer manual, but also covers multiple years, and also calls for 75 VAC stator output @ 4000 rpm, and no more than .4 ohms resistance for all post-1977 models, both single phase, and three phase.

Your Clymer KZ550 manual clearly differentiates between the single-phase and three-phase charging systems, so I think it's entirely reasonable to assume the KZ650 should have a similar differentiation.

What is needed at this point is to find someone with a FSM for an '81 LTD, or other KZ650 with a three phase charging system, and see what the factory specification is.

Thanks for your help OnkelB.

OK, wait, that's a KZ650 manual you have?

How many different manuals for these bikes does Clymer make?

Listen, please. Go and re read through your thread
#386516
On my 550's, I only get 45vAC at 3000 RPM on each pair of yellow wires on the stator. I get about 71vAC at 6000 RPM. I would say 60-something volts at 4000 RPM is doing good.
You now have 3 phases so each one is going to have less than a 1 phase would have.

I also think the AC readings you get on the other stators are fine. Those ACV reading alone would not label them as bad in my opinion. I would ignore the ohm readings as well, as long as they are all close to each other.

Are you saying some of the stators have scratches on the pole pieces? Did they appear after you tried them or before? Have you checked the runout on the rotor? If it wobbles, the rotor can be bent, or the crank can be bent, or the end of the crank may not be square. Run the bike with the stator and cover off and see if the rotors are wobbling.

It is very common for a stator to get bent after a crash, I have at least one bent one. Ebay ones may have been parted from a crash.

When you wire the new 3-phase stator, use all new wires from stator to the reg/rec. Then temporarily run new wires straight from the reg/rec to the battery...black to ground, white/red and brown to the positive.

And you don't have to look far to see much much more about both the 3 phase 3 wire system that you got from the Fifty and the 1 phase system that you had been so un lucky with.
Check some of the very easy to find threads,
I promise you will find your Fifty stuff is going to be OK, just make sure of your Grounds and wiring so you don't have voltage drops do to resistance.
Now I'll go away again as you asked.

Listen, brother. I asked you to go away because you out and out refused to help me resolve the issue of stator output, which I was absolutely, totally determined to attack and resolve before anything else, instead ignoring me completely and insisting I go another way.

Now, OnkelB has posted specifications for stator output for the three-phase KZ650 charging system that would seem to indicate the numbers we are getting indicate a healthy stator.

I'm somewhat confused, as I thought I had the Clymer manual for KZ650s, and mine definitely does not show that, but if those numbers are correct, then no one is more thrilled than I am.

I am especially appreciative towards OnkelB, as, instead of fighting me, or insisting on bending me to his will, he is helping me resolve the issue of stator output.

I just spoke to mechanic #3, who has been reading this thread today, but has only gotten to page 4, so he has yet to see all the grief and drama. He is going to recheck the stator resistance and output tonight.

Hopefully, the numbers OnkelB posted are correct. Is there a publication number on that book OnkelB? I'd sure like to understand why mine is different.

Motorhead, if you would be willing to join back in, I would appreciate it, but i need you to consider something, first.

There are threads on this site dating back to July of 2007 concerning the electrical problems I've been experiencing on this bike from the day I have bought it.

A lot of people have tried to help me resolve them, and I appreciate every bit of the help I've been offered.

If you read those threads, however, you will see that I have been in a lot of different (and expensive) directions. Well-meaning people make offhand comments that have caused me to expend enormous amounts of effort and money. People shooting from the hip send me in one direction, then later, they do a 180, and send me in another.

Now, I don't think anyone's trying to screw with me. I think people make those comments and give that advice without considering the effect, and it's just been my bad luck that three years of that scattershot approach has failed to find the mark.

That is why I have determined 1) that no new part will be purchased until I understand what ate the old one(s) and feel confident that what caused that has been resolved, and 2) that I will adopt a step-by-step, systematic approach to this problem, starting at the beginning (stator), making sure that part is performing properly, then moving downstream to the next part in-line.

If the stator output issue has indeed been resolved, we will be moving to the regulator/rectifier next, and we'll stay there till that's resolved.

I'd really appreciate your help, and anyone else's help, too, but only if they're willing to offer that help within the strategy I've determined will be followed.

I really hope you can do that. You clearly know aa lot about these things, and I clearly don't.

I do know how to solve problems, though, and I do know how to develop strategic plans and manage resources. That's what I'm doing here.