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TOPIC: Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 29 Jun 2011 16:02 #460157

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Thats just the extra figure being used, it's just an extra decimal unit.

.006 is the imperial version (.006 thou of an inch)

.152 is the metric

You will need thinner ones and a full range of feelers really if you intend to measure the actual gaps and re-shim.

To be honest, shimming isn't really difficult but if you are unsure now of feeler gauge sizes then it probably isn't a job you should take on. It should also be the last job done when the head is being rebuilt, if you have to lap in the valves etc that will alter the gap too.

If you want to do it I would get someone that's done it before to go through it with you as you do it, at least then you'll know for next time. It doesn't sound though like you have the right feelers to get it done.
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1982 KZ1100 A2
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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 29 Jun 2011 16:08 #460159

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Imo, valve clearance is here unrelated to the reported excessive oil consumption.
Nor are the bore measurements or piston measurements or other measurements.

Would consider as a likely probability that the primary mis-step in this top-end job was incorrect fitment of the oil rings as the cylinders were being slid into place over the pistons.

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 29 Jun 2011 16:15 #460160

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Patton wrote: Imo, valve clearance is here unrelated to the reported excessive oil consumption.
Nor are the bore measurements or piston measurements or other measurements.

Would consider as a likely probability that the primary mis-step in this top-end job was incorrect fitment of the oil rings as the cylinders were being slid into place over the pistons.

Good Fortune! :)


so does that mean quit worrying about that stuff, and just tear it down and look?

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 29 Jun 2011 16:46 #460166

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pctech101 wrote:

Patton wrote: Imo, valve clearance is here unrelated to the reported excessive oil consumption.
Nor are the bore measurements or piston measurements or other measurements.

Would consider as a likely probability that the primary mis-step in this top-end job was incorrect fitment of the oil rings as the cylinders were being slid into place over the pistons.

Good Fortune! :)


so does that mean quit worrying about that stuff, and just tear it down and look?


Yes.
Don't mess with the valves.
Remove the head.
Don't mess with the valves.
Don't measure anything.
Remove the cylinders.
Don't measure anything.
Inspect oil rings and replace any damaged oil ring.
Replace base gasket (preferable).
Reassemble, being careful to assure correct fitment of the oil rings as the cylinders are being slid into place over the pistons.
Replace head gasket (preferable).
Replace the head.
Test run to attain normal operating temperature.
Allow engine to cool overnight.
Re-torque the head.

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD

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Last edit: by Patton.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 29 Jun 2011 17:15 #460168

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Sorry Patton but this one is critical for oil consumption !

Nor are the bore measurements or piston measurements or other measurements.


Excessive ring gap / pinched delicate oil rings / overlapped oil expander... means smokes ftw!

Don't you find....

150 is low for new «seated» rings !?? (200+ miles since reassembled) Also valve job as been done!

120 psi is minimum compression

...Bets are open for problem is underneat :)
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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 29 Jun 2011 19:06 #460176

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ELCouz wrote: ...Bets are open for problem is underneat :)


I am assuming if thats the case we will see it once jugs are off...
i will tear her down again to the pistons. take pics, get lots of comments hopefuly. appears my extension walked off. i will finish tear down tomorrow if weather doesnt rain.

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 29 Jun 2011 23:33 #460217

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OK I've got to ask, was it the shop who did the valve work, also set the valve clearances? Did you take them the complete head with camshafts? You really need to but a feeler gauge that goes lower in size. Down to .002" of an Inch. Here is the Centech from China Tools: www.harborfreight.com/32-piece-sae-metri...ler-gauge-32214.html
Find that and the wayward socket extension, and carefully pull it back apart.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 00:05 #460222

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Motor Head wrote: OK I've got to ask, was it the shop who did the valve work, also set the valve clearances? Did you take them the complete head with camshafts?


i took head in without camshafts mounted. who set valve clearance when where? according to book i need to measure and order new shims accordingly. i thought. look i took head to tidmores in tyler tx. i wanted stuff mic'd, camshafts, etc. i wanted to m.ake sure things were in spec with book. my camshaft lobes are within spec, everything else is a pipe dream. i didnt know what to ask for exactly and i was left with that. so i really have no clue what was done to my head, besides a broken exhaust stud removed and replaced. i can see that. i took camshafts home with me because they didnt need them.

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 00:21 #460225

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That sir is very bad news, for you, I'm sorry to say. the camshafts should be with the machine shop, so that valve clearance can be set. Now it doesn't sound like this was done at all. You don't have the correct feeler gauge to measure them, right? So did you just reinstall the cams, without checking clearance? I hope not. If so you Definitely need to do so. Do this before pulling it apart. You may take measurements and find that they are so tight you can't get any feeler gauge in between the cam and lifter. So maybe you can move a few shims around, to get some of them right. Then order a few, that you need. Z1 ships the same day, Z1enterprises.com use them as they will get you the correct parts quickly at a very fair price.
I don't know if there is any kind hearted KZR members in your area who might have some 29 shims. But you can change them without removing the cams with a $10 special tool. Otherwise you would try prying down on the edge of the bucket/ tappet with a bar to get the shim out. Now you got me wondering plenty about your machine shop choice. Did they install the valve stem seals that you took to them? Maybe worth a peek, take out 1 cam, probably the Intake, and and take 1 set of keepers off. You can do this by holding the valve still with some soft cotton rope in the cylinder and piston pushed up against it. Then take a socket the right size, wear safety glasses, give the socket a sharp rap with a hammer. the keepers will poop out, preferably into the socket. Then you can remove the valve springs and look for the seal.
I really feel for you man, nothing like paying for a service and finding it wasn't done correctly. You should get the head back with clearances all set, just some final cleaning and torque it down. Shame really.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 00:39 #460230

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pctech101 wrote: i took head in without camshafts mounted....... i took camshafts home with me because they didn't need them.


They did a valve job and didn't need your cams?? Was this a place that normally works on bikes or some Buick dealership? I could be wrong, but I believe the shop needs to install the valves, shims, and cams so they can see if the valve stems need to be tipped. Shops that specialize in motorcycles should set up the head with the correct shims so you can install it on the bike without a lot of trouble. I wonder what other shortcuts they took? Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 00:59 #460233

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they specialize in automotive. not a motorcycle place. my dad had me thinking that they could do a valve job on my kaw. apparently they are worlds apart in reality. starting to believe a mechanic isnt good across all engines. my dad is a master diesel mechanic, i thought his knowledge would help me some. apparently i should of took the whole motorcycle to a motorcycle shop. i was wanting to build memories with my old man rebuilding my bike. instead it has been a negative experience.

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 01:04 #460234

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Well don't let it get to you, it can be fixed. Just get in there and check it. Maybe Dad can hangout and give some support. But don't let him get any diesel near the thing, it will stink forever. I call Diesels, "Rattle Clank Stanks", from my Cummings years. Stinking dirty things to work on. I prefer Gasoline to that smelly diesel.
Anyway just sleep on it tonight and get back to it tomorrow when you get to it. One thing about machinery, it will be there waiting when you get to it.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 01:10 #460235

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my other vehicle is a vw beetle tdi. i cant really smell diesel but my friend wont ride in car because diesel smell bother him.

riding either one get me 34 in city.

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 09:13 #460256

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I thought you might use this link to down load a copy of the Factory Service Manual. While the clymer does have a lot of info, it is nowhere near as detailed as the Kawasaki manual. Down load and read through the engine section.
If you don't have one yet you can download the FSM here: www.kz1000r.com/downloads/Kawasaki%20KZ1...Service%20Manual.pdf
If needed go to a computer and not a Iphone, then you can save it, then open and print as you need certain pages. It will give you every bit of info for doing your top end, very through.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 09:23 #460258

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pctech101 wrote: Got an 83 kz1100-L1
Tore her down and put new rings, new cam chain & guides, had valve job done @ machine shop. I supplied valve seals from my gasket set.
Problem. 200+ miles since reassembled. Burns quart of oil in 50+ miles. Fouls #1 sparkplug about every 50 miles. Plugs 1,2,3 all show signs of burning oil, 4 is clean. Compression is 150 on all 4. Havent done leak down, cant afford right now....


Regardless of excessive oil consumption with resultant plug fouling, and given no reported history of running on less that four cylinders or other performance issues, and given even compression figures on an engine that continues to perform upon attaining normal operating temperature (i.e., doesn't quit running when it heats up), such conditions suggest that valve clearance and valve function are at least minimally sufficient.

Insufficient valve clearance alone does not cause excessive oil consumption.
Typically, insufficient valve clearance results in loss of combustion within a cylinder, especially after the engine attains normal operating temperature.

Compression test figures of 150 psi across the board are acceptable imo, and indicate that the compression rings are okay, and that fitment of pistons to bores is within specs (i.e, piston clearances are okay and bores aren't excessively worn).

While excessive oil consumption may result from several different conditions (such as over-filling, wrong weight, fuel contamination, obstructed breather, etc.), the issue seems in this instance related to valve seals, or valve guides, or oil rings -- not compression rings -- and the relatively large volume of oil consumption points to the oil rings as primary suspects.

So check and re-check all the other stuff besides the oil rings, and measure and re-measure everything to heart's content --- won't hurt a thing, and might even promote warm and fuzzy feelings, but won't cure the oil burning problem at hand.

If the reported history is inaccurate or incomplete, it could of course affect the diagnosis.

Just my 2 cents.

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD

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Last edit: by Patton.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 09:52 #460263

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Patton wrote:

pctech101 wrote: Got an 83 kz1100-L1
Tore her down and put new rings, new cam chain & guides, had valve job done @ machine shop. I supplied valve seals from my gasket set.
Problem. 200+ miles since reassembled. Burns quart of oil in 50+ miles. Fouls #1 sparkplug about every 50 miles. Plugs 1,2,3 all show signs of burning oil, 4 is clean. Compression is 150 on all 4. Havent done leak down, cant afford right now....


Regardless of excessive oil consumption with resultant plug fouling, and given no reported history of running on less that four cylinders or other performance issues, and given even compression figures on an engine that continues to perform upon attaining normal operating temperature (i.e., doesn't quit running when it heats up), such conditions suggest that valve clearance and valve function are at least minimally sufficient.

Insufficient valve clearance alone does not cause excessive oil consumption.
Typically, insufficient valve clearance results in loss of combustion within a cylinder, especially after the engine attains normal operating temperature.

Compression test figures of 150 psi across the board are acceptable imo, and indicate that the compression rings are okay, and that fitment of pistons to bores is within specs (i.e, piston clearances are okay and bores aren't excessively worn).

While excessive oil consumption may result from several different conditions (such as over-filling, wrong weight, fuel contamination, obstructed breather, etc.), the issue seems in this instance related to valve seals, or valve guides, or oil rings -- not compression rings -- and the relatively large volume of oil consumption points to the oil rings as primary suspects.

So check and re-check all the other stuff besides the oil rings, and measure and re-measure everything to heart's content --- won't hurt a thing, and might even promote warm and fuzzy feelings, but won't cure the oil burning problem at hand.

If the reported history is inaccurate or incomplete, it could of course affect the diagnosis.

Just my 2 cents.

Good Fortune! :)


Exactly! Even if the valve clearance is off, it is not going to fix the oil consumption and smoking.


Also, there are plenty of auto shops with the know how to work on these bikes, as well as plenty of dedicated bike shops that shouldn't be working on them at all.

Lots of cars with the exact same shim on top valvetrain as the KZ.
1977 Kawasaki KZ1000 : Street/Strip
Build Thread

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 13:36 #460294

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I have problems with your link. is this the same file?

www.kz1000r.com/downloads/Kawasaki%20KZ1...Service%20Manual.pdf

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 30 Jun 2011 19:17 #460330

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Patton wrote:

pctech101 wrote: Got an 83 kz1100-L1
Tore her down and put new rings, new cam chain & guides, had valve job done @ machine shop. I supplied valve seals from my gasket set.
Problem. 200+ miles since reassembled. Burns quart of oil in 50+ miles. Fouls #1 sparkplug about every 50 miles. Plugs 1,2,3 all show signs of burning oil, 4 is clean. Compression is 150 on all 4. Havent done leak down, cant afford right now....


Regardless of excessive oil consumption with resultant plug fouling, and given no reported history of running on less that four cylinders or other performance issues, and given even compression figures on an engine that continues to perform upon attaining normal operating temperature (i.e., doesn't quit running when it heats up), such conditions suggest that valve clearance and valve function are at least minimally sufficient.

Insufficient valve clearance alone does not cause excessive oil consumption.
Typically, insufficient valve clearance results in loss of combustion within a cylinder, especially after the engine attains normal operating temperature.

Compression test figures of 150 psi across the board are acceptable imo, and indicate that the compression rings are okay, and that fitment of pistons to bores is within specs (i.e, piston clearances are okay and bores aren't excessively worn).

While excessive oil consumption may result from several different conditions (such as over-filling, wrong weight, fuel contamination, obstructed breather, etc.), the issue seems in this instance related to valve seals, or valve guides, or oil rings -- not compression rings -- and the relatively large volume of oil consumption points to the oil rings as primary suspects.

So check and re-check all the other stuff besides the oil rings, and measure and re-measure everything to heart's content --- won't hurt a thing, and might even promote warm and fuzzy feelings, but won't cure the oil burning problem at hand.

If the reported history is inaccurate or incomplete, it could of course affect the diagnosis.

Just my 2 cents.

Good Fortune! :)


Yep ;)

Problem is this, there are so many assumptions made on forums about possible problems, the skills of the people performing valve jobs, bore job etc....that the tendency is to confuse and frustrate the original poster of the thread with the problem....

The problem is particular and both probable causes have been given to the owner of the bike. If he follows logical progression, the problem will be discovered and resolved in short order.

Jumping the gun and going off in multiple directions is never a good thing.

If you find there is no problem with piston rings, look to the valve guides next, taking note of my post regarding that situation.

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 01 Jul 2011 00:40 #460400

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Any news to post up on the thread pctech101?
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 01 Jul 2011 11:15 #460458

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i took it easy yesterday, wasnt feeling the hottest. gets hot. anyhow, have to pull 14 nuts to have head off; glad i didnt since it rained. i want to pull pop off cylinder 1 valves and see guides and seals. if cylinder 1 guides are loose or what ever or a seal is damaged, should i keep going to rings or would it be smart to look at all valve guides and seals and if enough are loose or damaged seals, repair them and try not to disturb jugs and reassemble? sorry patton, looking for second and third opinions

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