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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 17:24 #459506

  • pctech101
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So, you want me to pull jugs again.
Do i need to buy new rings again?
Or if the idiot that installed them has them installed correctly, what then? Or what if i got oil ring 123 upside down, can i just flip them?

I cannot afford to keep doing the same thing. Tell me what to do. Tell me without a fact that my smoking and oil consumption isnt from valve seals. I cant see pulling head to replace valve seals, reassemble and find oil leak is rings. I can see leaving head in place and replacing valve seals and putting valve cover back in place and seeing if smoking stops. I cant afford new tools. I might be able to borrow. I just want help right now learning how do valve seals. I am hoping to hear how someone used this common tool with this and that to compress the spring, blah blah blah. I cant afford a shop. I cant afford specific tools. If you makeshifted a tool to do this, etc... im not expecting the guy thats got everytool n the shed to help me as much as the guy thats only got 5 bucks left, with a bent screwdriver, a nut, a bolt, bailing wire and ducttape.

I am looking for guidance in replacing my valve seals without pulling head off and having to buy a $50+ tool. If thats a pipe dream, okay, but help me live my dream...

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 17:30 #459507

  • ELCouz
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Sorry i didn't want to upset you but sometime it's hard i know (see my previous topics on my gpz)

I am hoping to hear how someone used this common tool with this and that to compress the spring, blah blah blah.


In fact i'm poor too ! Look at my tool i used to put my rings on :lol:




I discovered it was the most intelligent solution to having no money to spent on ring compressor... it worked so well that i might start a business with beer cans and hose clamps! :)

As for doing valve seals without pulling the head ... again sorry to break your dream it is not possible!

You need to take apart the valve and you need to compress it.. and by compressing it you need to have access to both valve end! :( You could make a homemade valve spring compressor tho!

EDIT2: check this out pctech101 --> Video of what it means


EDIT3: By looking at the valve exploded view you can see where are the seals and why it is impossible to remove them without removing the valves!




EDIT4: oops part #92049 are the valve stem seals!

EDIT5:

So, you want me to pull jugs again.
Do i need to buy new rings again?
Or if the idiot that installed them has them installed correctly, what then? Or what if i got oil ring 123 upside down, can i just flip them?


Troubleshooting by elimination is time consuming but worth it at the end (and damn satisfying too!)

Do the guy give you the old seals back ? This way you are sure it didn't put the old seals back into the valves
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe
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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 17:49 #459509

  • cavanaughracing
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Imperfect valve seals often result in more exhaust smoke before the engine attains normal operating temperature and less exhaust smoke at normal operating temperature.

Could be wrong, but thinking imperfect valve seals wouldn't cause burning a quart of oil every 50 miles.

A leak down test likely won't diagnose broken or improperly installed oil rings, which might be causing the reported issues.

Good Fortune! :)


I agree.

Oil consumption like that is most likely piston ring related. It won't always show up as a symptom from a compression test either.

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 17:51 #459511

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Sorry i had to post a new reply (too long!)

Are you sure that you are not leaking quart of oil from somewhere else too(ex: shifter seal or oil pan)?

It's a lot from the valves!

I ran out of ideas .... seriously !!!
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 18:24 #459519

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I have oil spray on bottom and sides of motor. Not from valve cover. Not from head gasket and not from jug gasket. I dont know how much is leaked out. It never had oil leaks like this before i tore it apart. I figured the new compression was causing new leaks. Ive parked her on cardboard and she doesnt leak sitting still.

All that aside.

Do i have to buy new rings again if i just have oil ring upside down or can i just flip it? What if oil rings are installed properly, then what?

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 18:32 #459522

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What if oil rings are installed properly, then what?

At least you know that is out of the equation and you did the job correctly ! :)

Did you check ring gap clearance btw and cylinder specs before putting new rings ?

Probably you did put it right (oil ring) but if oil ring gap is excessive you will have high oil consumption!

Maybe your engine was due to an oversize bore!

regards,
laurent

EDIT:

Do i have to buy new rings again if i just have oil ring upside down or can i just flip it?


If new bore is required (oversize pistons thus oversize rings needed) or deglazing (honing) again i would recommend so! They don't have side (up or don't doesn't matter) only the oil expander ring have a side and must not be overlapped (like in the previous picture)!


EDIT2: solid quote from wikipedia

Fitting new piston rings

When fitting new piston rings or breaking them in within an engine, the end gap is a crucial measurement. In order that a ring may be fitted into the "grooves" of the piston, it is not continuous but is broken at one point on its circumference. The ring gap may be checked by putting the ring into the bore/liner (squared to bore) and measuring with a feeler gauge. End gap should be within recommended limits for size of bore and intended "load" of engine. Metals expand with a rise in temperature, so too small a gap may result in overlapping or bending when used under hot running conditions (racing, heavy loads, towing) and, even at normal temperatures, a small ring gap may lead to ring gap closure, ring breakage, bore damage and possible seizure of the piston. Too large a gap may give unacceptable compression and levels of blow-by gasses or oil consumption. When being measured in a used bore, it may indicate excessive bore wear or ring wear. (Radial wear on ring face reduces thickness of used/worn ring (face wear in bore) essentially decreasing face circumference of ring and thereby increasing size of ring end gap.)


At least i could prove that i'm not BS you :) !
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 19:34 #459526

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The person that understands that stuff isnt helping me so no, i didnt measure, i bought standard rings and installed. The pistons and rings originally on there didnt consume any real oil.

So i need to pull jugs off again and do exactly what (i am a visual learner)?
Im not a mechanic, i dont understand this measuring stuff, so please be over helpful

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 19:38 #459528

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You said there is an oil leak that wasn't there before, I'd find the source of that first then move on from there and just to be sure, there is no oil on the cylinder or head, just from the case somewhere right?
1979 KZ1000E1 SOLD!
1984 KZ550F2 SOLD!
2006 ZG1000A6F (Totaled)
2001 ZRX1200R (Sold)
2001 Sprint 955i ST (daily rider)

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Last edit: by KZ_Rage.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 20:23 #459534

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The person that understands that stuff isnt helping me so no, i didnt measure, i bought standard rings and installed. The pistons and rings originally on there didnt consume any real oil.


Confirm if honing (breaking the glaze has been done) because putting new rings without «sanding» the jugs will prevent new rings to seat correctly hence if old rings did not consume oil now it might because they are not shaped to the cylinder shape (need honing).

Let me explain why all the fuzz about rings and cylinders...

When you got the motorcycle rings where properly break-in (no oil consumption like you said) over time the cylinder start to be very smooth and rings fit perfectly but when you put new rings without deglazing (honing) the ring ironically can't «scratch» on the cylinder wall to get its shape! it just slide on it (because of the coating,glazing) and never seal the chamber very well!

This could cause high oil consumption, smoke and will continue to smoke until cylinders gets deglazed!

I'm trying to be the most explicative without going lengthy (and too much technical) on the subject

[...]

You know while writing i had an idea...this COULD work but i'm not sure...

To know if you are leaking oil from the valve be sure to check if the intake valve is closed properly... then i would connect a high suction vacuum cleaner or device to the intake port and you MIGHT see oil seeping to the vacuum cleaner!

Beside that i have no idea to check for leaks beside taking the head apart and inspecting trace of oil around valves...

best regards,
laurent
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 20:35 #459541

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Not to start an oil war here but are you running synthetic oil like Rotella T Synthetic or another brand? I have read that rings won't break-in properly unless using dino-oil for the initial wear-in period but then you can switch back after that to synth if you wanted. Just a thought...
1979 KZ1000E1 SOLD!
1984 KZ550F2 SOLD!
2006 ZG1000A6F (Totaled)
2001 ZRX1200R (Sold)
2001 Sprint 955i ST (daily rider)

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 20:42 #459546

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KZ Rage is right on this! Never use synthetic oil to break-in an engine! In many engine machine shop this will void warranty on the job done to your engine! (including my place i get my engines done!)

Use old regular dino oil !

Before the war start that they put synthetic oil in recent NEW bike from dealer let me remind you that engine has been already break-in in the kawasaki factory (engine testing) ;)

regards,
laurent
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 21:07 #459554

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Yes, cylinders were honed. Running regular car 10/40 non synthetic of course.

There are no leaks around my jugs, cylinders, or valve cover. Oil leak is confinded to lower side of motor. I will paarts clean her tomorrow and let her sit and get hot, maybe raise rpms a little and see if i can see where it comes from.

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