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TOPIC: Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 25 Jun 2011 22:30 #459365

  • pctech101
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Got an 83 kz1100-L1
Tore her down and put new rings, new cam chain & guides, had valve job done @ machine shop. I supplied valve seals from my gasket set.
Problem. 200+ miles since reassembled. Burns quart of oil in 50+ miles. Fouls #1 sparkplug about every 50 miles. Plugs 1,2,3 all show signs of burning oil, 4 is clean. Compression is 150 on all 4. Havent done leak down, cant afford right now.
All the reading i have done leads me to believe it was those damn valve seals from gasket set. I have ordered Vitons. I have read through out many forums that you can use air to keep valves up, and replace seals without pulling head. Can it be done without air, using rope threaded through spark hole and turning to TDC or something similar? Any tips and woes?

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 25 Jun 2011 22:35 #459366

  • MFolks
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If Larry Cavan isn't too busy and sees this, he might offer advice.
1982 GPZ1100 B2
General Dynamics/Convair 1983-1993
GLCM BGM-109 Tomahawk, AGM-129A Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM)

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 25 Jun 2011 23:16 #459371

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Imperfect valve seals often result in more exhaust smoke before the engine attains normal operating temperature and less exhaust smoke at normal operating temperature.

Could be wrong, but thinking imperfect valve seals wouldn't cause burning a quart of oil every 50 miles.

A leak down test likely won't diagnose broken or improperly installed oil rings, which might be causing the reported issues.

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD

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Last edit: by Patton.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 00:06 #459379

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Lets entertain my grand lure that it is crapy valve seals that are the problem.

She love to smoke during engine braking/downshifting, at idle at red light and you roll throttle a couple times. She'll idle and not smoke. She'll idle and barely smoke. Drive the dogsh!t out of her up to 100Mph, doesnt smoke to much. Just the other day when she burnt a quart in about 50miles, she started smoking heavily while running 75, dropped speed to 60, didnt change much, got to light, started up again and she didnt smoke that heavily again. Nothing is static except that she burns oil. She smokes how she wants to. If it was oil rings, would there not be a more uniform burning going on?

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Last edit: by pctech101.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 03:54 #459395

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Sounds like it might be pulling oil down the outside of the intake guides.

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 04:14 #459398

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APE Jay wrote: Sounds like it might be pulling oil down the outside of the intake guides.


Now I know your old, and it's late, but how is that possible o mysterious one? :blink:

Are you saying without saying, in some form of riddle, the guide is loose or cracked or what??

Say it mann sayy it!

Can we get a drum roll for Jay? bbbbbbbbb booom!

Thank you, Thank you

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 09:46 #459412

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Yes you can change the seals out without pulling the head, if you have the correct tools. Depending on whether or not you have the right kind of spring compressor. Something like this:
cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Universal-OHC-OH...&hash=item3a6758443d
That much consumption sounds more like a oil ring issue, like Patton said.
If you need to buy another spring compressor, better to just take off the head, so then you can be ready to pull the cylinders off when the valve seals look OK. You can still fit the Teflon ones then.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

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Last edit: by Motor Head.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 15:01 #459469

  • ELCouz
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Tore her down and put new rings, new cam chain & guides, had valve job done @ machine shop. I supplied valve seals from my gasket set.
Problem. 200+ miles since reassembled. Burns quart of oil in 50+ miles.


Looks like somebody pinched the very thin and delicate oil rings AND/OR misaligned the oil rings :whistle:

btw, did you get the cylinders honed when put the new rings ?

Maybe you rings never seated properly...possibly out of specs cylinders ?

Hope this helps!

regards,
laurent


EDIT: don't forget this





:whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe
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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 15:13 #459472

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Patton wrote: Imperfect valve seals often result in more exhaust smoke before the engine attains normal operating temperature and less exhaust smoke at normal operating temperature.

Could be wrong, but thinking imperfect valve seals wouldn't cause burning a quart of oil every 50 miles.

You are correct. On my 750, I had one seal so bad it had torn the top of the seal completely away. It did foul the plug, but very little oil consumption.

I would bet on a damaged/broken/collapsed ring.
1979 KZ-750 Twin

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Last edit: by bountyhunter.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 15:22 #459476

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Imperfect valve seals


chance that you are getting brand new seals with imperfection are low!

/me thinks butched valve job! :dry:

Maybe an incorrectly installed seals or even broken or missing valve seals could cause to leaks and suck oil around the valve guide a lot !

Beside that you could have a cracked head (oil channel seepage)or bad rings ...

i think thats it!
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 15:58 #459482

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Well i personally dont have a clue.
Yes the cylinders were honed for new rings.
I have not checked/adjusted valve clearance yet, can that let it burn oil too?
It wasnt burning anything before teardown so i highly doubt my head has a crack.

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Last edit: by pctech101.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 16:02 #459484

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I have not checked/adjusted valve clearance yet, can that let it burn oil too?


No but too much clearance cam lobe will slap the valve (noise and possibly pounding the valve seat which is not good) and not enough clearance will make the valve not closing properly (can also overheat the valves)

For me i would take the time and tore down the engine again to check everything again because its not normal something f**ked up... patience is a virtue i've read that somewhere :)
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 17:24 #459506

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So, you want me to pull jugs again.
Do i need to buy new rings again?
Or if the idiot that installed them has them installed correctly, what then? Or what if i got oil ring 123 upside down, can i just flip them?

I cannot afford to keep doing the same thing. Tell me what to do. Tell me without a fact that my smoking and oil consumption isnt from valve seals. I cant see pulling head to replace valve seals, reassemble and find oil leak is rings. I can see leaving head in place and replacing valve seals and putting valve cover back in place and seeing if smoking stops. I cant afford new tools. I might be able to borrow. I just want help right now learning how do valve seals. I am hoping to hear how someone used this common tool with this and that to compress the spring, blah blah blah. I cant afford a shop. I cant afford specific tools. If you makeshifted a tool to do this, etc... im not expecting the guy thats got everytool n the shed to help me as much as the guy thats only got 5 bucks left, with a bent screwdriver, a nut, a bolt, bailing wire and ducttape.

I am looking for guidance in replacing my valve seals without pulling head off and having to buy a $50+ tool. If thats a pipe dream, okay, but help me live my dream...

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 17:30 #459507

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Sorry i didn't want to upset you but sometime it's hard i know (see my previous topics on my gpz)

I am hoping to hear how someone used this common tool with this and that to compress the spring, blah blah blah.


In fact i'm poor too ! Look at my tool i used to put my rings on :lol:




I discovered it was the most intelligent solution to having no money to spent on ring compressor... it worked so well that i might start a business with beer cans and hose clamps! :)

As for doing valve seals without pulling the head ... again sorry to break your dream it is not possible!

You need to take apart the valve and you need to compress it.. and by compressing it you need to have access to both valve end! :( You could make a homemade valve spring compressor tho!

EDIT2: check this out pctech101 --> Video of what it means


EDIT3: By looking at the valve exploded view you can see where are the seals and why it is impossible to remove them without removing the valves!




EDIT4: oops part #92049 are the valve stem seals!

EDIT5:

So, you want me to pull jugs again.
Do i need to buy new rings again?
Or if the idiot that installed them has them installed correctly, what then? Or what if i got oil ring 123 upside down, can i just flip them?


Troubleshooting by elimination is time consuming but worth it at the end (and damn satisfying too!)

Do the guy give you the old seals back ? This way you are sure it didn't put the old seals back into the valves
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe
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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 17:49 #459509

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Patton wrote: Imperfect valve seals often result in more exhaust smoke before the engine attains normal operating temperature and less exhaust smoke at normal operating temperature.

Could be wrong, but thinking imperfect valve seals wouldn't cause burning a quart of oil every 50 miles.

A leak down test likely won't diagnose broken or improperly installed oil rings, which might be causing the reported issues.

Good Fortune! :)


I agree.

Oil consumption like that is most likely piston ring related. It won't always show up as a symptom from a compression test either.

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 17:51 #459511

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Sorry i had to post a new reply (too long!)

Are you sure that you are not leaking quart of oil from somewhere else too(ex: shifter seal or oil pan)?

It's a lot from the valves!

I ran out of ideas .... seriously !!!
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 18:24 #459519

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I have oil spray on bottom and sides of motor. Not from valve cover. Not from head gasket and not from jug gasket. I dont know how much is leaked out. It never had oil leaks like this before i tore it apart. I figured the new compression was causing new leaks. Ive parked her on cardboard and she doesnt leak sitting still.

All that aside.

Do i have to buy new rings again if i just have oil ring upside down or can i just flip it? What if oil rings are installed properly, then what?

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 18:32 #459522

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What if oil rings are installed properly, then what?

At least you know that is out of the equation and you did the job correctly ! :)

Did you check ring gap clearance btw and cylinder specs before putting new rings ?

Probably you did put it right (oil ring) but if oil ring gap is excessive you will have high oil consumption!

Maybe your engine was due to an oversize bore!

regards,
laurent

EDIT:

Do i have to buy new rings again if i just have oil ring upside down or can i just flip it?


If new bore is required (oversize pistons thus oversize rings needed) or deglazing (honing) again i would recommend so! They don't have side (up or don't doesn't matter) only the oil expander ring have a side and must not be overlapped (like in the previous picture)!


EDIT2: solid quote from wikipedia

Fitting new piston rings

When fitting new piston rings or breaking them in within an engine, the end gap is a crucial measurement. In order that a ring may be fitted into the "grooves" of the piston, it is not continuous but is broken at one point on its circumference. The ring gap may be checked by putting the ring into the bore/liner (squared to bore) and measuring with a feeler gauge. End gap should be within recommended limits for size of bore and intended "load" of engine. Metals expand with a rise in temperature, so too small a gap may result in overlapping or bending when used under hot running conditions (racing, heavy loads, towing) and, even at normal temperatures, a small ring gap may lead to ring gap closure, ring breakage, bore damage and possible seizure of the piston. Too large a gap may give unacceptable compression and levels of blow-by gasses or oil consumption. When being measured in a used bore, it may indicate excessive bore wear or ring wear. (Radial wear on ring face reduces thickness of used/worn ring (face wear in bore) essentially decreasing face circumference of ring and thereby increasing size of ring end gap.)


At least i could prove that i'm not BS you :) !
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

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Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 19:34 #459526

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The person that understands that stuff isnt helping me so no, i didnt measure, i bought standard rings and installed. The pistons and rings originally on there didnt consume any real oil.

So i need to pull jugs off again and do exactly what (i am a visual learner)?
Im not a mechanic, i dont understand this measuring stuff, so please be over helpful

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Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 19:38 #459528

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You said there is an oil leak that wasn't there before, I'd find the source of that first then move on from there and just to be sure, there is no oil on the cylinder or head, just from the case somewhere right?
1979 KZ1000E1 SOLD!
1984 KZ550F2 SOLD!
2006 ZG1000A6F (Totaled)
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Last edit: by KZ_Rage.
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