Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 20:23 #459534

  • ELCouz
  • ELCouz's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 381
  • Thank you received: 5

The person that understands that stuff isnt helping me so no, i didnt measure, i bought standard rings and installed. The pistons and rings originally on there didnt consume any real oil.


Confirm if honing (breaking the glaze has been done) because putting new rings without «sanding» the jugs will prevent new rings to seat correctly hence if old rings did not consume oil now it might because they are not shaped to the cylinder shape (need honing).

Let me explain why all the fuzz about rings and cylinders...

When you got the motorcycle rings where properly break-in (no oil consumption like you said) over time the cylinder start to be very smooth and rings fit perfectly but when you put new rings without deglazing (honing) the ring ironically can't «scratch» on the cylinder wall to get its shape! it just slide on it (because of the coating,glazing) and never seal the chamber very well!

This could cause high oil consumption, smoke and will continue to smoke until cylinders gets deglazed!

I'm trying to be the most explicative without going lengthy (and too much technical) on the subject

[...]

You know while writing i had an idea...this COULD work but i'm not sure...

To know if you are leaking oil from the valve be sure to check if the intake valve is closed properly... then i would connect a high suction vacuum cleaner or device to the intake port and you MIGHT see oil seeping to the vacuum cleaner!

Beside that i have no idea to check for leaks beside taking the head apart and inspecting trace of oil around valves...

best regards,
laurent
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 20:35 #459541

  • KZ_Rage
  • KZ_Rage's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Ale
  • Posts: 891
  • Thank you received: 19
Not to start an oil war here but are you running synthetic oil like Rotella T Synthetic or another brand? I have read that rings won't break-in properly unless using dino-oil for the initial wear-in period but then you can switch back after that to synth if you wanted. Just a thought...
1979 KZ1000E1 SOLD!
1984 KZ550F2 SOLD!
2006 ZG1000A6F (Totaled)
2001 ZRX1200R (Sold)
2001 Sprint 955i ST (daily rider)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 20:42 #459546

  • ELCouz
  • ELCouz's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 381
  • Thank you received: 5
KZ Rage is right on this! Never use synthetic oil to break-in an engine! In many engine machine shop this will void warranty on the job done to your engine! (including my place i get my engines done!)

Use old regular dino oil !

Before the war start that they put synthetic oil in recent NEW bike from dealer let me remind you that engine has been already break-in in the kawasaki factory (engine testing) ;)

regards,
laurent
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by ELCouz.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 21:07 #459554

  • pctech101
  • pctech101's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 60
  • Thank you received: 0
Yes, cylinders were honed. Running regular car 10/40 non synthetic of course.

There are no leaks around my jugs, cylinders, or valve cover. Oil leak is confinded to lower side of motor. I will paarts clean her tomorrow and let her sit and get hot, maybe raise rpms a little and see if i can see where it comes from.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

. 26 Jun 2011 21:35 #459555

  • KZ250LTD
  • KZ250LTD's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 1324
  • Thank you received: 17
.
79 KZ1000ST
Past:
Many.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by KZ250LTD.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 21:45 #459557

  • cavanaughracing
  • cavanaughracing's Avatar
  • Offline
  • User is blocked
  • User is blocked
  • Posts: 228
  • Thank you received: 22
I just noticed that's an 83 model.

With some J heads, the valve guide fit wasn't the best. They sometimes were loose. Most times, you can install new standard sized guides without any problems. However, on occasion, an oversize guide is required because of the loose fit.

Last one I had like that come through the shop, I noticed it when the guide installed with very little resistance. I replaced them with OS guides.

Now Kawasaki was aware of the problem but didn't make a public notice of it. They used to have us install an o-ring around the the top of the guide. The spring seat would hold it down in place. This was not ever done under warranty as a warranty issue. However, if the engine happened to be apart for a head gasket, porous block replacement...etc. I would get authorization to replace the valve seals and install those O-rings.

I'm not saying that's your problem but it's something to make note of.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by cavanaughracing.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 21:59 #459561

  • pctech101
  • pctech101's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 60
  • Thank you received: 0
i guess it was a bad idea letting someone else do the work. i dont know what guides feel like. ive never disassembled a valve. i dont know what things are suppose to look like or not look like.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 22:16 #459562

  • ELCouz
  • ELCouz's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 381
  • Thank you received: 5
The guy who did the valve job for you had experience in motorcycle engine ?
Or it was a car engine shop ?

When i was looking for a good shop... i request some «portfolio» to know that the guy doesn't bullshit me .... or i do some research if it is a big company...

If possible takes picture... videos anything that could help us visually !

By text sometime it's hard! Picture is worth a thousand words ! (i've read that somewhere :P )

regards,
laurent
1982 KZ810-R1 GPZ with hindle 4-into-1 pipe

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 22:55 #459569

  • pctech101
  • pctech101's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 60
  • Thank you received: 0
automotive work is their main work. my dad is friends with the owner of the business. i was led to believe that they could do the work properly. i told them i wanted a "valve job", new exhaust bolt on #3 (extraction and replacement), sparkplug hole # 3 threads repaired. i asked the tech what he needed me to get, he told me valve stem seals, i gave him the ones from my gasket set and a copy of wear limits from clymer. get head back a week later. was excited to get her back together and missed that sparkplug 3 wasnt repaired.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by pctech101.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 23:18 #459574

  • bountyhunter
  • bountyhunter's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 7252
  • Thank you received: 337

ELCouz wrote: KZ Rage is right on this! Never use synthetic oil to break-in an engine! In many engine machine shop this will void warranty on the job done to your engine! (including my place i get my engines done!)

Use old regular dino oil !

IMHO, It's a myth that just won't die:





www.roadcarvin.com/tech/synthetic-oil-during-engine-break-in

What do the oil manufacturers say?

Mobil

Myth:

You should break in your engine with conventional oil, then switch to a synthetic oil like Mobil 1.
Reality:

You can start using Mobil 1 in new vehicles at any time, even in brand new vehicles. In fact, Mobil 1 is original equipment (it is installed at the factory) in:

Acura RDX
Aston Martin
All Bentley Vehicles
All Cadillac Vehicles
Chevrolet Corvette C6 and Z06
Chevrolet TrailBlazer SS
Chrysler 300C SRT-8
Cobalt SS S/C Coupe
Dodge Caliber SRT-4, Charger SRT-8, and Magnum SRT-8
Jeep Cherokee SRT-8
Mercedes-Benz AMG Vehicles
Mercedes SLR
Mitsubishi Evolution
Pontiac Solstice GXP
All Porsche Vehicles
Saturn Ion Red Line and Saturn Sky Red Line
Viper SRT-10

One of the myths surrounding synthetic oils is that new engines require a break-in period with conventional oil. The fact is, current engine manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period. As indicated by the decisions of the engineers who design the high-performance cars listed above, Mobil 1 can be used starting the day you drive the car off the showroom floor.

- www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Myths.aspx


other refs:

www.bamph.com/rmh/oilmyths.htm

www.autocarepronews.com/Article/41506/pe...o_synthetic_oil.aspx

www.supplylink.com/article/fleet-synthetic-oil


texlube.com/oilmyths.htm

www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.d...70&contentId=7007980
1979 KZ-750 Twin

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by bountyhunter.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 26 Jun 2011 23:22 #459575

  • bountyhunter
  • bountyhunter's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 7252
  • Thank you received: 337

KZ250LTD wrote:

pctech101 wrote: Running regular car 10/40


The majority of regular automotive oil has energy preserving additives in it which will coat your clutch plates and cause your clutch to slip. Go to any brand bike shop and buy motorcycle 10w40 for $5-6 a litre

You don't have to run bike oil unless you just have money to burn. I have run car oil in my KZ-750 for 32 years (since new). You just need to avoid all oils marked "energy conserving" on the label as those have the friction reducers. Most 5-30 and 10-30 have this (avoid them), most (if not all) 10-40 and 20-50 oils do NOT have friction reducers and are safe to use.

The most dangerous aspect of all modern oil is that ZDDP has been removed from any oil labeled SM or SN service class, and engines with overhead cams and flat tappet lifters need this additive. It can be added using Redline Break-in additive or ZDDPlus. IMHO, you shouldn't run oil without sufficient ZDDP in an older bike or car.
1979 KZ-750 Twin

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by bountyhunter.

. 26 Jun 2011 23:41 #459580

  • KZ250LTD
  • KZ250LTD's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 1324
  • Thank you received: 17
.
79 KZ1000ST
Past:
Many.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by KZ250LTD.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 27 Jun 2011 02:01 #459603

  • APE Jay
  • APE Jay's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Banned
  • Banned
  • Posts: 1403
  • Thank you received: 57

cavanaughracing wrote: I just noticed that's an 83 model.

With some J heads, the valve guide fit wasn't the best. They sometimes were loose. Most times, you can install new standard sized guides without any problems. However, on occasion, an oversize guide is required because of the loose fit.

Last one I had like that come through the shop, I noticed it when the guide installed with very little resistance. I replaced them with OS guides.

Now Kawasaki was aware of the problem but didn't make a public notice of it. They used to have us install an o-ring around the the top of the guide. The spring seat would hold it down in place. This was not ever done under warranty as a warranty issue. However, if the engine happened to be apart for a head gasket, porous block replacement...etc. I would get authorization to replace the valve seals and install those O-rings.

I'm not saying that's your problem but it's something to make note of.


NADS read this

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 27 Jun 2011 04:04 #459618

  • nads.com
  • nads.com's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 999
  • Thank you received: 19

APE Jay wrote:

cavanaughracing wrote: I just noticed that's an 83 model.

With some J heads, the valve guide fit wasn't the best. They sometimes were loose. Most times, you can install new standard sized guides without any problems. However, on occasion, an oversize guide is required because of the loose fit.

Last one I had like that come through the shop, I noticed it when the guide installed with very little resistance. I replaced them with OS guides.

Now Kawasaki was aware of the problem but didn't make a public notice of it. They used to have us install an o-ring around the the top of the guide. The spring seat would hold it down in place. This was not ever done under warranty as a warranty issue. However, if the engine happened to be apart for a head gasket, porous block replacement...etc. I would get authorization to replace the valve seals and install those O-rings.

I'm not saying that's your problem but it's something to make note of.


NADS read this


Ahh the old 83 story, good one! I know the story since I had a guide come out that I put in.

Valve seals in the kit are junk, they pull apart like bubble gum. If it was my bike I'd take out the cams and buckets and visually inspect the valve seals and take it from there. Remove the carbs and peek into the port? Shine a light into the plug hole and look for a carboned valve. Follow the yellow brick road! I hope someone told you it is easy to replace guide seals with the head on. Cuz it is.

If you don't find the problem in the head, you'll need to take the cylinder to the a shop and have the bores measured. This takes about one minute of the guy is fast and should not cost hardly a thing.

But I live in nd so....

Check for oil leaking below the tensioner and on the top of the case. It runs down through a hole and exits on the left side of the bike . O ring around clutch pusher bar could be checked too.

I'm thinking larry is on track here, once you remove a guide another one of the same size is not usaully going to go in tight, you can feel this as you install them. The person who did it knows.

A slight pressure fit is not enough, they need to be solid, (not super tight) just solid giong in. All the way to the bottoming. I would think you need at least .002 oversize guides and without them oucha wowa. Too loose for my blood. It's not the end of the world. If it happens you have to take off the head then I would install a driver into each guide and tap it with a hammer so you know they are tight in there. If they move easy they WIL come out. Alot of aluminum gets moved right out of those guide holes when old guides are removed, ask anyone and everyone who's done it. Some alot, some a little. I just go by feel when I put them back in.

Guides can be removed and peened on top a vise or bench. This has to be done very conserative or you'll get it way too big and forcing it in after that is more trouble yet.

Just saying you don't have to get new guides but the seats will need cutting again after they are back in.

Wish I was there to help. I know what it's like having no money and noone with any experience around to count on doing these things. Just take your time and take it apart piece at a time and you'll see what's happening, learn alot.

I just put my engine back together, then had a cam chain galley leak. I took the head off and every cylinder is burning oil, the seals when I put them on were pathetic. They were new, but they were like mush. Two of them tore aprt just pushing them on and one tore when the valve pushed through it. BUT.

I also used my old rings from a 903 block I had bored ( they cave man'd it) I put them in a stock 1015cc block that had 25thou on the engine. They were in good shape.

So I don't know where the oil is going but there's none on the ground! :woohoo:

It burn alot of oil, about the rate yours is. But BOY is mine FAST! :cheer:

I like to hang out with people who have oil. :P I'll see soon wether it's gonna get better on the oil burning, it may have already slowed down

You gotta be more like me, I just don't care. :huh: :dry:

If I didn't want it to burn oil I would have set it up that way. But those seals man are garbage.

I wouldn't bet the farm you won't lose your oil through bad seals I've seen this before. Oil doesn't magically stay on top the motor when there's a hole you can see daylight through between the seal and the valve. And the suction on the intake side. Take a look at the intake valves through the plug holes and look for carbon. That one though is going to mean tearing it down. That's the leaker or loose guide or torn seal or what have ya.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by nads.com.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 27 Jun 2011 12:43 #459673

  • pctech101
  • pctech101's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 60
  • Thank you received: 0
Well, after all this reading i just get more confused. i can take my bike up to the shop that did my valves and use their air to compress air in cylinders and try to get cylinder 1 seals out without pulling head. if seals seem okay and guide is firm then i guess i should pull down and do rings again, correct?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 27 Jun 2011 12:55 #459675

  • Patton
  • Patton's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 18838
  • Thank you received: 2086

pctech101 wrote: Got an 83 kz1100-L1
...have read through out many forums that you can use air to keep valves up, and replace seals without pulling head. Can it be done without air, using rope threaded through spark hole and turning to TDC or something similar?....

The rope method won't require an air compressor or the fitting that screws into the spark plug hole.

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Patton.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 27 Jun 2011 13:07 #459676

  • tachrev
  • tachrev's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Rubber Side Goes Down
  • Posts: 344
  • Thank you received: 11
I do not see how you can replace the valve seals on that engine without pulling the head.

There is no easy way to compress the valve springs.

It is possible on some heads, and I have done it in cars with an air compressor. But the valve springs are accessible on the ones I did.

On a KZ, the valve springs are down in a pocket inside the head. No room to get a spring compressor in there.

I don't see any other solution that to pull the head.
1977 Kawasaki KZ1000 : Street/Strip
Build Thread

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by tachrev.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 27 Jun 2011 13:09 #459677

  • Patton
  • Patton's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 18838
  • Thank you received: 2086

pctech101 wrote: ...Do i need to buy new rings again?...
Or what if i got oil ring 123 upside down, can i just flip them?....

Would carefully inspect each oil ring for any damage before re-installing it.

I don't know whether new oil rings are separately available.

DIY valve tools are often used (engine head removed, of course).
Clamp, plus diy-sculpted socket, short length of metal pipe or PVC pipe.













Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Patton.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 27 Jun 2011 13:49 #459689

  • pctech101
  • pctech101's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 60
  • Thank you received: 0
look at the tool the guy used here for removing valve keepers:
www.lextreme.com/valve_seals.html
anyone ever used something similar? it looks like a life saver as far as what i am wanting to do.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Replacing Valve Stem Seals without pulling head 27 Jun 2011 13:57 #459693

  • 79MKII
  • 79MKII's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Love Them Kaws!
  • Posts: 2546
  • Thank you received: 47
This is a little short on details, but here's something that was posted in another thread about changing valve stem seals without removing the head:

Oh and you could change the stem seal when you go to adjust the valves, no reason to remove the head. Hold the the valves in place with shop air, while at TDC firing position. Then you can take the spring off and change the seal. Really the valve can go nowhere when the piston is up, the shop air is to hold the valve to compress the spring.
The Kaw List:
Current: 79 KZ1000 A3 MKII, 78 KZ1000 A2, 78 KZ1000 Z1-R, 78 KZ650 SR, 80 KE175
Former: 03 KLX400SR, 99 ZRX1000, 82 KZ750 LTD, 80 KZ1000 A4 MKII, 80 KZ1000 LTD, 78 KZ1000 A2, 74 H-2 750 Triple, 78 KL250

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum