Best Place To Have Stator Rewound?

seanof30306 wrote:

...

The 1979 KZ650 wiring diagram shown under KZ Information Filebase has two wires from the alternator to the rectifier. (See excerpt below).

If understanding the other posted info, some similar models had three wires from the alternator to the rectifier.
The reported stator (see above quote) seems to have three wires.

I believe each wire from the stator should separately run to the rectifier.
And that none of the wires from the stator should be connected to each other.
This belief is based on the wiring diagram (see excerpt below).

Comparable Wiring diagrams with three wires from the stator consistently show each of the three wires separately running to the rectifier.

Good Fortune!

seanof30306 wrote:

When I first got this bike, everyone said get a Clymer manual, so I did. Then everyone said get a factory service manual, so i did. Then eveyone said get the Electrosport charging system troubleshooting guide, and I did. But now, apparently every test and paramater for voltage and amperage in those books is bullshit, because every time I post results of those tests and ask questions about them they're either ignored, or I'm told I need to put a scope on it, etc.

I also have the Clymer and the Factory Service Manual and would recommend both (I've learned from both).
And yes, most of the ohm tests etc are only one way tests. That means they can only confirm a dead one if it fails. They cannot prove that one is good if it passes. So they are 50% bullshit. I didn't really mean you need to put a scope on it. I meant someone who knows how to use a scope and uses them regularly and tests charging system regularly needs to put a scope on it.

Somehwere, in one of the threads, I've suggested load tests you can do to confirm the stator output is good, but I don't recall what became of that.

seanof30306 wrote:

If there isn't, I'm going to see if loudvhx will let me load it up and bring it to him in Chicago. I just can't take this anymore.

I'd be happy to check it out. But, make sure the bike can ride on water. My basement flooded, My dad's house is surrounded by water, my sister's apartment flooded, my uncle's basement flooded, and his girlfriend's house flooded, all last night. I don't even have a dry pair of shoes right now.

But on your charging problem, I thought you were at the point of putting on a voltmeter to see when/where the problem happens. I think that is the best next step you can do, after getting it all back together with a decent stator.

otakar wrote:

Take a picture of the one you have and post it, because that year had two different alternators.

OK, here's the deal on that.

I went to Kawasaki.com and checked. They show 15 different KZ650, SR 650, and LTD 650 models made between 1977 and 1983.

There are three charging systems. The first was the original generator charging system that came in most 1977 models.

In late 1977 they changed over to an alternator/stator charging system and produed that through the end of the 1980 model year.

In 1981 they changed over to another, second-generation alternator/stator system and produced that through the 1983 model year.

For all 1977, 1978, 1979, and 1980 models, the same diagram comes up, showing two different charging systems; the generator type that came on most 1977 models, and the first-generation alternator/stator system that came on late 1977 and all 1978, 1979 and 1980 models. There was, however, only one charging system available on 1979 models: PN 21003-1005 stator, and PN 21050-1003 flywheel. Those are the only stators and rotors that came on all 1977-1980 first-generation alternator/stator charging systems.

Here are the models with the first-generation alternator/stator charging systems:

PN 21003-1005 stator
PN 21050-1003 flywheel

1977 KZ650 B1
1977 KZ650 C1 (Custom)
1978 KZ650B2
1978 KZ650B2A
1978 C2 (Custom)
1978 KZ650 D1 (SR)
1978 KZ650 D1A (SR)
1979 KZ650 B3
1979 KZ650 C3 (Custom)
1979 KZ650 D2 (SR)
1980 KZ650 E1 (LTD)
1980 KZ650 F1

Also, in another thread, loudvhx suggested the possibility of an accidental mismatch of rotor and stator between the first and second-generation charging systems as being a possible cause of my low stator output. I went by a used bike parts place today and looked at a stator from an '81-83 second gen charging system, and I just don't think that's possible. The second gen stator is quite a bit larger, and would not fit inside the rotor that is on my bike. I the rotor was a second-generation one with a first-generation stator, the distance between the stator and rotor would be way greater than my meticulous measuring with my Mark I eyeball has revealed.

Patton wrote:

seanof30306 wrote:

Patton wrote:

Alternator output may be lowered or prevented by a short in the wiring or by a break in the wiring. Or by a weakened magnet (through age, or dropping or hitting the rotor).

Good Fortune!

Patton, are you talking about a short or a break in the wiring between the stator to the regulator/rectifier to the battery, or one elsewhere in the harness?

Wiring referring to the coil wires aka windings.

Good Fortune!

OK, if I'm understanding you, you're talking about the copper wire wound on the stator? If so, whouldn't the ohms-resistance test reveal a short or break in that wiring?

Patton wrote:

Good Fortune!

OK, there are 4 wires coming out of the stator itself. Those butt connectors are what Rick's used to connect the wires when they rewound the stator. The four wires coming out of the stator are butt- connected to become the two wires that run from the stator out the cover to the regulator/rectifier. If you'll scroll up to the two ebay stator auctions otakar posted, you'll see that they are two-wire stators. The stator on he bike is the same; two wires.

The wire(s) that aren't connected are the other two wires coming out of the stator. They connect to the loose butt-connector at the top of the picture.

Also, I'm assuming you're using photoshop to put those notes and arrowsa on the pics?

THE PLAN (opinions appreciated):

OK, I'm going to take the stator in the pic to a local shop in an hour or so and have it fixed. Once it's done, I'm going to check the resistance on the stator, put it back on the bike, and see what I get.

In the meantime, I found an '81 LTD I can pick up for 50 bucks. It has no front end, wheels, or seat, but the engine is complete (although the top end is off of it, and "something dropped down in there" when the guy I'm getting it from pulled the top end off the motor.

What my immediate interest lies in is the charging system, which is all there. It has the second-generation alternator/stator charging system, while my bike has the first-generation system, so there's no mixing and matching, but if my repaired rewound stator doesn't put out what I would like, Plan B is to swap the entire charging system from the '81 over and see what I get.

So, here is question #1: Will the 81 charging system swap directly over to my '79?

Question #2 Will I have to change over to the '81 model voltage regulator, as well? As I understand it, the only difference between the two is the additional brown wire that runs to switched 12v power on the second-generation charging system. I know you can run the second-generation regulator with a first generation stator and rotor as long as you run that brown wire to switched 12v power, I've done it. What I don't know is if you can run a first generation regulator with a second-generation stator and rotor.

Question #3: Is the second-generation charging system (1981-on) superior to the first generation alternator/stator charging system (late 1977-1980)?

Question #4: Once I'm satisfied with the stator output, I'm going to look at the regulator. Has anyone used one of those lifetime-guarantee regulators from that dude in Oregon?

www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/index.html

Even if I don't use the electrical system from the '81 bike, I figure the carbs, gauges and straight frame with a clear title are worth way more than what I'm paying for it.

PLUMMEN wrote:

have you checked with sid pogue in oklahoma city?he used to crank out tons of work on the 900-1000s,i wonder if he knows of somebody in your area that could handle it for you?

I have not, thanks for the tip. Do you know how I can get ahold of him?

seanof30306 wrote:

There was, however, only one charging system available on 1979 models: PN 21003-1005 stator, and PN 21050-1003 flywheel. Those are the only stators and rotors that came on all 1977-1980 first-generation alternator/stator charging systems.

Here are the models with the first-generation alternator/stator charging systems:

PN 21003-1005 stator
PN 21050-1003 flywheel

1977 KZ650 B1
1977 KZ650 C1 (Custom)
1978 KZ650B2
1978 KZ650B2A
1978 C2 (Custom)
1978 KZ650 D1 (SR)
1978 KZ650 D1A (SR)
1979 KZ650 B3
1979 KZ650 C3 (Custom)
1979 KZ650 D2 (SR)
1980 KZ650 E1 (LTD)
1980 KZ650 F1

As I mentioned several times in other threads over the years, the Kawasaki parts info has a lot of errors on the subject of 650 alternators. It is impossible for the bikes on that list to have the same stator or rotor. It's impossible for the 77 650 to have the same stator or rotor as any other year 650 with the possible exception of early 1978 models if they had to use up the old stock of alternators.

The parts interchangeability links have the most errors. The actual fiche pages are more accurate, (not 100%) but it takes a lot longer to compare part numbers etc that way.

This is what I had in my notes:
As of 2005 from buykawasaki.com (their parts fiche program has changed a few times since then.)
KZ650 Alternators:

First gen.
1977 B1 standard...3phase excited field
1977 C1 custom.....3phase excited field

Second gen.
1978 B2 standard...1phase permanent mag
1978 C2 custom.....1phase permanent mag
1978 D1 sr...............1phase permanent mag
1979 B3 standard...1phase permanent mag
1979 C3 custom.....1phase permanent mag
1979 D2 sr...............1phase permanent mag
1980 E1 LTD............1phase permanent mag
1980 F1 custom......1phase permanent mag

Third gen.
1981 H1 csr.............3phase permanent mag
1982 H2 csr.............3phase permanent mag
1983 H3 csr.............3phase permanent mag up to KZ650DE052650

Fourth gen.
1983 H3 csr.............New type 3phase permanent mag starting at KZ650DE052651

seanof30306 wrote:

Also, in another thread, loudvhx suggested the possibility of an accidental mismatch of rotor and stator between the first and second-generation charging systems as being a possible cause of my low stator output. I went by a used bike parts place today and looked at a stator from an '81-83 second gen charging system, and I just don't think that's possible. The second gen stator is quite a bit larger, and would not fit inside the rotor that is on my bike. I the rotor was a second-generation one with a first-generation stator, the distance between the stator and rotor would be way greater than my meticulous measuring with my Mark I eyeball has revealed.

Thanks for checking that. I always wondered how close they were. So now we know there is likely no way to interchange those two size/types.


I've talked to some 650 owners who wanted to run the 1-phase rotor with the 3-phase stator and said it looked like they would fit. I wonder if they ever managed to get it working. The rotors would have the same number of magnets for both so it would theoretically work if they are a close physical match. I guess the older 3-phase permanent magnet rotor (third gen.) might be the same size as the 1-phase permanent magnet rotors (second gen.).

1983 (fourth gen.) must have had the change of size then. The one you looked at must have been a "new-type" 83 (fourth gen.) then?

seanof30306 wrote:

Patton wrote:

OK, there are 4 wires coming out of the stator itself.

It's kind of hard to tell in the photo, but just to be clear, the orange arrow is pointing to two wires twisted together, is that correct?

That would make sense.

If it's only one wire then where is the 4th wire?

seanof30306 wrote:

THE PLAN (opinions appreciated):

OK, I'm going to take the stator in the pic to a local shop in an hour or so and have it fixed. Once it's done, I'm going to check the resistance on the stator, put it back on the bike, and see what I get.

I'm curious to see how that goes.


seanof30306 wrote:

In the meantime, I found an '81 LTD I can pick up for 50 bucks. It has no front end, wheels, or seat, but the engine is complete (although the top end is off of it, and "something dropped down in there" when the guy I'm getting it from pulled the top end off the motor.

What my immediate interest lies in is the charging system, which is all there. It has the second-generation alternator/stator charging system, while my bike has the first-generation system, so there's no mixing and matching, but if my repaired rewound stator doesn't put out what I would like, Plan B is to swap the entire charging system from the '81 over and see what I get.

So, here is question #1: Will the 81 charging system swap directly over to my '79?

As I mentioned earlier, others have said these were physically interchangeable. Check it and let's see if they are the same size at least.

There is always the possibility that the crankshaft end is different.


seanof30306 wrote:

Question #2 Will I have to change over to the '81 model voltage regulator, as well? As I understand it, the only difference between the two is the additional brown wire that runs to switched 12v power on the second-generation charging system. I know you can run the second-generation regulator with a first generation stator and rotor as long as you run that brown wire to switched 12v power, I've done it. What I don't know is if you can run a first generation regulator with a second-generation stator and rotor.

79 is 1-phase. 81 is 3-phase. Can only use the 81 or later reg/rec with the 3-phase alternator. There will not be enough yellow wires on the 79 reg/rec to match to the 81 alternator.

(It is critical that the brown wire get's power while running or no regulation happens.)

seanof30306 wrote:

Question #3: Is the second-generation charging system (1981-on) superior to the first generation alternator/stator charging system (late 1977-1980)?

Not sure about total power output, but it will be smoother, less ripple.


seanof30306 wrote:

Question #4: Once I'm satisfied with the stator output, I'm going to look at the regulator. Has anyone used one of those lifetime-guarantee regulators from that dude in Oregon?

www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/index.html

Even if I don't use the electrical system from the '81 bike, I figure the carbs, gauges and straight frame with a clear title are worth way more than what I'm paying for it.

Haven't used one, but lifetime warranty sounds good.

If you don't mind the hassle, I think you might even be able to make money on the 81 if the frame is straight and title clear, as you said.

loudhvx wrote:

[As I mentioned several times in other threads over the years, the Kawasaki parts info has a lot of errors on the subject of 650 alternators. It is impossible for the bikes on that list to have the same stator or rotor. It's impossible for the 77 650 to have the same stator or rotor as any other year 650 with the possible exception of early 1978 models if they had to use up the old stock of alternators.

The parts interchangeability links have the most errors. The actual fiche pages are more accurate, (not 100%) but it takes a lot longer to compare part numbers etc that way.

This is what I had in my notes:
As of 2005 from buykawasaki.com (their parts fiche program has changed a few times since then.)
KZ650 Alternators:

First gen.
1977 B1 standard...3phase excited field
1977 C1 custom.....3phase excited field

Second gen.
1978 B2 standard...1phase permanent mag
1978 C2 custom.....1phase permanent mag
1978 D1 sr...............1phase permanent mag
1979 B3 standard...1phase permanent mag
1979 C3 custom.....1phase permanent mag
1979 D2 sr...............1phase permanent mag
1980 E1 LTD............1phase permanent mag
1980 F1 custom......1phase permanent mag

Third gen.
1981 H1 csr.............3phase permanent mag
1982 H2 csr.............3phase permanent mag
1983 H3 csr.............3phase permanent mag up to KZ650DE052650

Fourth gen.
1983 H3 csr.............New type 3phase permanent mag starting at KZ650DE052651

seanof30306 wrote:

Also, in another thread, loudvhx suggested the possibility of an accidental mismatch of rotor and stator between the first and second-generation charging systems as being a possible cause of my low stator output. I went by a used bike parts place today and looked at a stator from an '81-83 second gen charging system, and I just don't think that's possible. The second gen stator is quite a bit larger, and would not fit inside the rotor that is on my bike. I the rotor was a second-generation one with a first-generation stator, the distance between the stator and rotor would be way greater than my meticulous measuring with my Mark I eyeball has revealed.

Thanks for checking that. I always wondered how close they were. So now we know there is likely no way to interchange those two size/types.


I've talked to some 650 owners who wanted to run the 1-phase rotor with the 3-phase stator and said it looked like they would fit. I wonder if they ever managed to get it working. The rotors would have the same number of magnets for both so it would theoretically work if they are a close physical match. I guess the older 3-phase permanent magnet rotor (third gen.) might be the same size as the 1-phase permanent magnet rotors (second gen.).

1983 (fourth gen.) must have had the change of size then. The one you looked at must have been a "new-type" 83 (fourth gen.) then?

I actually went to the parts fiche for each individual model to get that information.

Now, that's interesting about the 1983 (fourth gen). On the 1983 fiche, they show two charging systems, but they look identical, and the part numbers for the rotor (PN 21050-1015) and the stator (PN 21003-1083) are the same in both. Each part number is only listed once in the fiche. The references are modified, though. The stator has a reference of 21003, and 21003A, and the rotor (actually called a flywheel, magneto) has a reference of 21050, and 21050A.

To my mind, adding an "A" suggests a modification, rather than a new part. I would think the major change would have happened back in 1981, when the part numbers changed. You can immediately tell the difference between the earlier stator and the new one.

Oh, and I just got back from my third trip to the electrical repair shop. When I called, the guy I talked to said they could fix it. On the first trip, no one was there. On the second trip, the guy I needed to talk to wasn't there. This morning, the guy was there, but began shaking his head as soon as he saw the stator, before I even said a word. As I tried to explain to him that I didn't need it rewound, all I needed was a new output wire made up and the wires tied back down to the stator, he interrupted me twice saying they couldn't help me. When I finally got him to let me finish, he sighed deeply, started filling out a repair ticket and said he hoped I wasn't in a hurry. I asked him if he was talking days, or weeks. He said weeks. Hard experience has taught me never to let someone work for me who acts like they're doing me a favor to take my money, so I walked out.