TOPIC:

hwms wrote:

Inar:
I thought the photo's were of Vincents.
Is the Vincent and Triton the same motorcyle ?
Harry

Are you asking if a Vincent and a Triton are the same thing?

One was a production bike, the other was the beginning of a custom bike subculture, and is considered by the mass of people who are into cafe racers to be the grandfather, and epitome, of cafe bikes.

They are, quite definitely, not even close to being the same thing.

Post edited by: twowheeledterror, at: 2005/12/20 22:25

The vincent on the picture is a Egli modifyed Vincent Black Shadow Café Racer buildt by Patric Godet. It is not compareable with the Triton. But it is very different from a stock Vincent bike.

The Triton is a mix of a Triumph and a Norton. The frames used are either a Norton wideline, or featherbed frame, with a Triumph engine. That's why the name Tri-ton. And there were different body work used on them. In most cases they used a Dresda or Manx styled fuel tank made in aluminium, like the one on the picture below, or they used a Dunstall or Rickman styled aluminium or fibre tank.

An acquaintance of mine is racing a Triton in classic racing btw.

The "god fathers" of cafe racers are the Norton ES2, Norton Manx, and BSA Gold Star.

But you can use any tank you wan't to. That is not the issue. I merely pointed out that the tanks on the pictures posted above are aluminium tanks, not modified stock tanks. The stock Norton or Triumph tank are very different from those tanks. And the Café racer tanks that are produced today for the Kawasaki W650 café racers, are also aluminium tanks.
I just couldn't picture a stock Kawasaki tank getting the same style by cutting and welding. That's all.





Post edited by: ibsen22000, at: 2005/12/21 03:01

TWT,
Why dont you finish one project before you move on to the next?
Your see through clutch cover isnt done yet and this one has the potential to never get done also.
I agree with the statement that the look that you are looking for wont come from modify-ing that tank. It would be easier to use a different tank that allready has the cut outs in it.
Daniel

twowheeledterror wrote:

fonZee wrote:

Just out of curiousity, why would you do this ?

Because your tank as an expressive form of art is an awesome idea.

OH ok. I just didn't realize some were making cafe style bikes from these old Kawasakis. It should look rather nice when finished. I have seen many nice bikes sculpted from bondo.

dgfischer wrote:

TWT,
Why dont you finish one project before you move on to the next?
Your see through clutch cover isnt done yet and this one has the potential to never get done also.
I agree with the statement that the look that you are looking for wont come from modify-ing that tank. It would be easier to use a different tank that allready has the cut outs in it.
Daniel

Well, for starters, because I dont' have access to the facilities I need to finish that at the moment.

Might as well have something to do, right?

And you can agree if you want that this won't make a similar tank... but tell me this.... have you ever modified a tank to give it knee tucks? Cause I have, and I've seen what it looks like.

Here's an example of a modified tank:



I guess that I'm a minority considering that I'd rather try to make what I want out of what I have partially for the challenge of it than just doing whats always "easiest".

It'd be easier to just go buy a thruxton and be done with it... but I won't be doing that anytime soon either.

ibsen22000 wrote:

The vincent on the picture is a Egli modifyed Vincent Black Shadow Café Racer buildt by Patric Godet. It is not compareable with the Triton. But it is very different from a stock Vincent bike.

The Triton is a mix of a Triumph and a Norton. The frames used are either a Norton wideline, or featherbed frame, with a Triumph engine. That's why the name Tri-ton. And there were different body work used on them. In most cases they used a Dresda or Manx styled fuel tank made in aluminium, like the one on the picture below, or they used a Dunstall or Rickman styled aluminium or fibre tank.

An acquaintance of mine is racing a Triton in classic racing btw.

The "god fathers" of cafe racers are the Norton ES2, Norton Manx, and BSA Gold Star.

But you can use any tank you wan't to. That is not the issue. I merely pointed out that the tanks on the pictures posted above are aluminium tanks, not modified stock tanks. The stock Norton or Triumph tank are very different from those tanks. And the Café racer tanks that are produced today for the Kawasaki W650 café racers, are also aluminium tanks.
I just couldn't picture a stock Kawasaki tank getting the same style by cutting and welding. That's all.

<br><br>Post edited by: ibsen22000, at: 2005/12/21 03:01

Believe me, you're not telling me anything new about cafe racers. I've been into these bikes for years and years now... quite literally long before I was even old enough to ride one.

I know what the black bike was. I personally prefer Tritons, and always will. Then again, why not build a Norvin?

Your information you are reading to tell me about didn't sink in too well. The Wideline and Slimline are BOTH Featherbed frames.... the Featherbed came in a few varieties. Wideline, slimline, manx specific, and some race spec widelines were made.

Considering that I've ridden a god number of these bikes I can tell you this... Vincents are neat, but they won't handle like a featherbed does.

In "most cases" they did not use a dresda. Dresda is a guy. Not a company. He made custom tanks... you really think he made enough to supply every cafe racer of the era? lol The point of these bikes was that they were built by people very DIY, and if you know about the econimic and political position in the UK during this era, people weren't exactly wiping their asses with 50 pound notes. A lot of the kids would just build a lot of their own stuff.

As for where cafe racers came from, that's called an opinion. According to a lot of people though, it all started when kids were modifying their bikes and coming up with Tritons, and that's where my opinion stands. The bikes you listed are nice, but lack one thing that made them the "godfathers of cafe racers"... modification.

Please feel free to see my last post for a photo of a tank with the style that was cut, modded and welded.

And I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but please refrain from trying to educate me abotu cafe racers. It's great that you're getting into them too, but you're preaching to the choir.

twt, I think ibsen22000 was simply replying in a polite fashion to hwms's question about what bike was what, not questioning anything you stated. It certainly isn't unusual that a member of KZRIDER would have a question about BRITISH bikes. Somehow you learned what a Triton was, which means you probably asked a question, unless you exited the womb with your vast and superior knowledge of all things MC.

twt, I like the proposed knee dents, and your frame mods, btw.

Post edited by: lowbuck, at: 2005/12/21 10:22

its only metal my dad allways says,he was a blacksmith/boilermaker for 30 plus years if you take your time you can build anything.the guy who is doing my 55chevy (lowel Krueger)was my highschool shopteacher 25 years ago has been building hotrods for over 40 years builds model A ford bodies out of scrap sheets of metal and the parts actually look origional he has a 32 plymouth sedan in his shop he built a front and back fender for that look just like the other side without a pattern to copy!bondo is used for finetuning panels you dont sculpt panels from it!lowel finally bought an english wheel this year to make some parts,but most parts are still hammered out by hand .he grew up in a little town in nebraska where you couldnt just go out and buy parts and even if you could nobody had the money buy them anyway!i will allways walk by a billet boyd coddington car or an occ bike to look at something scratchbuilt,even if its not perfect!im going to start changing my picture every month to differant projects,ill post some krueger pictures on it too!

Post edited by: wireguy, at: 2005/12/21 10:30

lowbuck wrote:

twt, I think ibsen22000 was simply replying in a polite fashion to hwms's question about what bike was what, not questioning anything you stated. It certainly isn't unusual that a member of KZRIDER would have a question about BRITISH bikes. Somehow you learned what a Triton was, which means you probably asked a question, unless you exited the womb with your vast and superior knowledge of all things MC.

twt, I like the proposed knee dents, and your frame mods, btw.<br><br>Post edited by: lowbuck, at: 2005/12/21 10:22

I don't have a superior knowledge of MC's... but I would say it's fairly vast. My dad is into bikes. He had a victor 441 when I was a kid. He was also into harleys and jap bikes too, so I kinda grew up around motorcycles.

Thanks for the support on the mods too. It's taking a long time, but that's the point of a project like this. Progress at it's own pace, and make sure that things are done exactly the way you want them to be done.

I didn't mean to sound insulting to Ibsen by the way. That wasn't my intention at all. I ain't got no beef.

wireguy wrote:

its only metal my dad allways says,he was a blacksmith/boilermaker for 30 plus years if you take your time you can build anything.the guy who is doing my 55chevy (lowel Krueger)was my highschool shopteacher 25 years ago has been building hotrods for over 40 years builds model A ford bodies out of scrap sheets of metal and the parts actually look origional he has a 32 plymouth sedan in his shop he built a front and back fender for that look just like the other side without a pattern to copy!bondo is used for finetuning panels you dont sculpt panels from it!lowel finally bought an english wheel this year to make some parts,but most parts are still hammered out by hand .he grew up in a little town in nebraska where you couldnt just go out and buy parts and even if you could nobody had the money buy them anyway!i will allways walk by a billet boyd coddington car or an occ bike to look at something scratchbuilt,even if its not perfect!im going to start changing my picture every month to differant projects,ill post some krueger pictures on it too!<br><br>Post edited by: wireguy, at: 2005/12/21 10:30

I completely agree on this 100%.

A lot of people who hand form will tell you: Anything that can be done with a wheel or plannish can be done with a shot bag, a hammer, some metal and some time to spend.

Hand forming is pretty awesome really. It's super artistic. And the tanks will always come out with a few little ripples from the forming... but this is the thing. Only the OCC prefab crowd will give hat negative criticism... people who are really into the bikes will see those marks and be like "Man, that's a home made tank. Awesome!".

No problem twt, it's an interesting discussion.

The Origin of the Famous Norton Featherbed Frame

The Norton featherbed frame was created around an old fashioned long stroke single cylinder engine with a very top heavy cylinder head. The size of this engine dictated the space between the top and bottom rails of the full duplex cradle. In retrospect the result of this early effort enabled all kinds of engines using all kinds of configurations to be installed ion to this versatile and robust frame. Originally, it came with a bolt on rear sub frame which eventually got welded up particularly when the bolts came loose. Over time there where 3 major versions of the frame. These 3 major groups came in the bolted and welded variety.
a. The Manx racer in Reynolds 531 chrome moly.
b. The single overhead cam International in grade A mild steel.
c. The Dominator twin frames in grade B mild steel.
Then there where 2 subdivisions in category a. 16 gauge tube for the 500cc and the 17 gauge tube for the 350cc. Tube gauge is important so don't go putting a 500 in a 350 frame.
Then in category c.. in about 1959 or 1960, Norton put the old single cylinder Model 50 (350cc) and the ES2 (EaSy2, 500cc) into the featherbed to rationalize frame production. As you can see there where quite a few variations on what looked to be the same frame. Intact they came off the same jig. 1960 was the year the top rails where installed at the rear of the tank. This wasn’t just an Atlas mod, it was across the board. At the same time the tank design and its badges where changed.

The main reasons to have a standard bike converted into a cafe racer were: The need for speed, and being cool in all the right places (preferably where you could hear Rock `n´ Roll ) as well as being quite simply different. These machines were not only meant to transport you as fast as possible, but were also saying something about you and your distinct attitude. As such bikes where not readily available, you simply had to build them yourself.

Although there were some pretty fast bikes on sale from BSA, Norton, Triumph or Velocette, there was no model bringing the best of these together. A strong bike provided about 40 to 45 horsepower, but generally they did not have the look.


By the mid fifties bikers started to put Triumph engines into a Norton Featherbed frame. Since Triumph engines were considered to be powerful and Norton frames and forkes to deliver excellent roadholding, a new type of bike was born, the TRITON. A bike with outstanding handling and that delivered enough power to let you reach a 100 MPH, The Ton.

Accessories like clip on`s, special tail and head lights, racing carbs, exhaust pipes and alloy fuel tanks gave a special and individual touch to every single Cafe Racer. Although there are many TRITONS or DRESDAS on the roads, rarely do you see two that look exactly the same. All are different, tailored to the individual needs and taste of each owner. Here we´re actually talking of the first customised bikes, a trend which find its continuity with all those choppers, cruisers and, perhaps the true inheritors of the Cafe Racers, the modern Streetfighter.

And this is the bike that I have always believed was the one that the café racer builders had in mind, the 1953 Norton Manx.

My parents and uncles are into bikes and fabrication, I grew up around custom bikes and cars. I've been to school for my share of this that pertain to the building of bikes and cars, built my first custom bike as a kid with minimal help from my uncle (before I had a license or was old enough to have one).

My younger brother is following in these same footsteps. He's 14 and he's building a cafe racer out of one of my old CB's that's been sitting up there.

On top of that, I read damn near anything I can find on the topics as it's something I've been passionate about since childhood.

Post edited by: twowheeledterror, at: 2005/12/25 19:31

Post edited by: steell, at: 2006/01/21 11:11