Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo

  • gordone
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27 Jul 2018 08:58 #787741 by gordone
After I rebuild the engine and upgraded to bigbore 810 kit, I have fighting against bad engine running... it turned out the problem was the float hight duo to wrong and bad needle and seat for the carbs.

So now in my mine the engine is going really well, almost so I don`t want to touch anything :) Only some small issue of idle, problery duo to some out sync on the carb.

Anyway, I have not checked the plugs for a while and after a 3 hours drive with high speed yesterday, I took out the plugs and all four was block almost identical, some less black was the 4`th, please see attached photos.

During the troubleshooting was the pilot jet increased from 17.5 to 20.0, can these be the reason?
It was not so black before rebuild of the engine when I running 750cc stock engine.

Data:
KZ650-D4 w 81 750-4 engine and bigbore 810 kit.
VM24 carburetors with main jet 112.5 and pilot 20.0, the needle is on the highest point (most richer)
4 to 1 exsos and running pods.
New dyna coils and good voltage on the battery.

Questions:
1. Must I clean the plugs or by new to see the current status, or should the old black soot be burned away after a 3 hours drive?
2. If it shall be burned off, what to start with, can the issue be only be the air mix screw position in incorrect?
3. What to-do ?

The engine is going good as I said below, but I have feeling I use to much gas ....
I checked the consummation approx. under the 3 hours drive yesterday and ended up at approximate:
0,77liter per 10 kilometer.

01.


02.


03.


04.

1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

Project:
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine
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27 Jul 2018 09:28 #787742 by Street Fighter LTD
Replied by Street Fighter LTD on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
Are you running the proper heat range sparkplugs  for your bike ?  I never assume .

I would put new plugs in it , Then do your mixture  plug color check. 

Looks  like a real  rich   mixture. 

Easy free check might be to lean out needles  ( lower them ) and see what happens

I dont claim to be a 810cc tune expert , but  dropping the needles  can be done with out any money invested

Dave


Original owner 78 1000 LTD
Mr Turbo Race Kit, MTC 1075 Turbo pistons by PitStop Performance , Falicon Ultra Lite Super Crank, APE everything. Les Holt @ PDM's Billet Goodies . Frame by Chuck Kurzawa @ Logghe Chassis . Deep sump 5qt oil pan. RIP Bill Hahn

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27 Jul 2018 10:03 - 27 Jul 2018 10:05 #787745 by zed1015
Replied by zed1015 on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
Unless you did a plug chop at high speed the condition of those plugs only show a rich mixture at idle and possibly the plug is too cold ( you should want B8 or B9's)...
Base circle of plug is mixture and ground strap is heat range but over rich idle will mask all that.
First put the needle back to the middle position and run it . if still showing rich fit the smaller pilots and run it again.
To determine the mix at other throttle openings you need to hold the throttle under load ( going up a hill etc ) and kill the motor at whatever throttle opening/ fuel circuit you want to check the mixture at or get it on a dyno.
For the plug chop method it's easier if you mark the throttle grip and the housing with white marker at 1/4 -1/2 and 3/4 throttle positions so that you can accurately hold the throttle in the correct position before killing the ignition.

AIR CORRECTOR JETS FOR VM CARBS AND ETHANOL RESISTANT VITON CHOKE PLUNGER SEAL REPLACMENT FOR ALL CLASSIC AND MODERN MOTORCYCLE CARBURETTORS
kzrider.com/forum/23-for-sale/611992-air-corrector-jets-





Last edit: 27 Jul 2018 10:05 by zed1015.

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  • gordone
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27 Jul 2018 14:35 - 27 Jul 2018 14:40 #787753 by gordone
Replied by gordone on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo

zed1015 wrote: Unless you did a plug chop at high speed the condition of those plugs only show a rich mixture at idle and possibly the plug is too cold ( you should want B8 or B9's)...
Base circle of plug is mixture and ground strap is heat range but over rich idle will mask all that.
First put the needle back to the middle position and run it . if still showing rich fit the smaller pilots and run it again.
To determine the mix at other throttle openings you need to hold the throttle under load ( going up a hill etc ) and kill the motor at whatever throttle opening/ fuel circuit you want to check the mixture at or get it on a dyno.
For the plug chop method it's easier if you mark the throttle grip and the housing with white marker at 1/4 -1/2 and 3/4 throttle positions so that you can accurately hold the throttle in the correct position before killing the ignition.


Plugs I have is Brisk LR14C Super 1485 ( www.brisk.eu/catalogues/spark-plugs/moto/super ).
When you saying B8 or B9, we talking about BR8ES or BR9ES?
The spark plug I have should be almost identical to BR8ES?

Can I just use these plug for further troubleshooting, they are easy get in my town...?

So the black color will not be burn away?

Before the rebuild of the engine I used 17.5 / 112.5 and one step reacher then middle position for the needle.
And the plugs was good then, but these was with the 750cc and not 810cc.

Maybe I shall go back to these setup and install new plugs and then do a new test?
Shall I drive the bike around on a tour and then stop or shall I only let it idle with new plugs before I check or... ?

1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

Project:
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine
Last edit: 27 Jul 2018 14:40 by gordone.

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  • SWest
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27 Jul 2018 14:51 #787755 by SWest
Replied by SWest on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
Why are you running resistor plugs? Resistor caps too?
Steve

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27 Jul 2018 17:27 #787771 by KZB2 650
Replied by KZB2 650 on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
He's got the Dyna solid core wires Steve so he can use the resister plugs..... most run the br8es but in your case (only being able to get the Brisk plugs you should be good as long as they are equal to the 8es in the heat range)............... like Zeds plan of attack...... thinking maybe I steered you wrong on the 5th position on the needle and maybe you should go back to the 4th and I've never seen any thing other than a 17.5 pilot being run by anyone on here or (many others) on the old 650 website.

1978 KZ650 b-2
700cc Wiseco kit 10 to 1.
1980 KZ750 cam, ape springs, stock clutch/ Barnett springs.
Vance and Hines Header w/ comp baffle and Ape pods, Dyna S and green coils, copper wires.
29MM smooth bores W/ 17.5 pilots, 0-6s and 117.5 main
16/42 gearing X ring chain and alum rear JT sprocket.

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  • gordone
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28 Jul 2018 00:42 - 28 Jul 2018 00:44 #787781 by gordone
Replied by gordone on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
Thank you all !

I have now ordered 8 of NGK - BR8ES just to avoid any misunderstandings in the tuning.

When I receive the plugs
1. Install the 17.5 pilot jets
2. lower the needle to 4`th posistion
3. install four new plugs.
4. start the engine and let it heat up.
5. adjust the air mix screw best I can.
6. drive around in the city in different speeds.
7. drive home and take out the plugs to see how they looks like ?

Is these a good plan for now ?

1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

Project:
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine
Last edit: 28 Jul 2018 00:44 by gordone.

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28 Jul 2018 05:24 #787787 by Street Fighter LTD
Replied by Street Fighter LTD on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
All good , But do as Zed1015 describes above 

AND do the plug chop  he speaks about.

Otherwise you wont get the information you really need 

Dave


Original owner 78 1000 LTD
Mr Turbo Race Kit, MTC 1075 Turbo pistons by PitStop Performance , Falicon Ultra Lite Super Crank, APE everything. Les Holt @ PDM's Billet Goodies . Frame by Chuck Kurzawa @ Logghe Chassis . Deep sump 5qt oil pan. RIP Bill Hahn

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28 Jul 2018 06:27 #787793 by Patton
Replied by Patton on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo

KZB2 650 wrote: He's got the Dyna solid core wires Steve so he can use the resister plugs.....


Only if also using non-resistor plug caps.

Good Fortune! :)

1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD
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  • gordone
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28 Jul 2018 14:37 #787811 by gordone
Replied by gordone on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
Have I ordered wrong spark plugs?

I have:
Dyna 3.0 ohm coils
Dyna ignition wires 7mm copper black cabels.

is my plan good?

1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

Project:
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine

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28 Jul 2018 15:20 #787816 by Street Fighter LTD
Replied by Street Fighter LTD on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
As Patton  indicated. 

You should not run resistor  caps on your plug wires with Resistor plugs.

Pick one  or the other.     I would not run resistor plugs in your application .

For that matter I would not run resistor wire/caps  or resistor plugs.

Dave


Original owner 78 1000 LTD
Mr Turbo Race Kit, MTC 1075 Turbo pistons by PitStop Performance , Falicon Ultra Lite Super Crank, APE everything. Les Holt @ PDM's Billet Goodies . Frame by Chuck Kurzawa @ Logghe Chassis . Deep sump 5qt oil pan. RIP Bill Hahn
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  • Scirocco
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28 Jul 2018 15:39 #787818 by Scirocco
Replied by Scirocco on topic Black Plugs / Running fine / what todo
I other words he will reduce the ignition performance.
Resistor caps and plugs are a relict of the past by disturbing analog Radio and TV reception.
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