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TOPIC: Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1

Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 05 Nov 2019 12:33 #813593

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See how the face of that alternator cover is smooth? The 1977 one will have 3 screws in a triangle pattern on the face. That makes it a 3-phase stator with a field coil.

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 05 Nov 2019 12:36 #813594

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Does that mean points or electronic is better in my case? I definitely understand that properly set points will work great but I'd still like to know my options for the future.

BTW luckily I was able to source some points and condensers for total $35 bucks CAD !!! Going to pick them up today, got lucky :) Hoping this store stocks them for a while, most of the other stores seemed to hint at points not getting restocked anytime soon.
'77 KZ650 in progress...

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 05 Nov 2019 12:39 #813595

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A Dyna S should work on most Kz650's without any problem. Since yours is the early charging system, it should have no problem. The 1977 system is the most powerful when working properly, but it is also complicated and somewhat more expensive to get parts for.

Just to be clear, the Kz650B1 and Kz650C1 are both 1977 models.
B2/C2 was 1978
B3/C3 was 1979
etc.

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 05 Nov 2019 17:10 #813610

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lakshan wrote: Does that mean points or electronic is better in my case? .........


It depends. On cars, trucks, bikes, etc. that originally came with electronic ignition switching to points would not be good. On machines that came with points switching to electronic ignition can be good or bad depending on the luck of the draw.

Even though points gradually degrade over miles I have not read of any instances where points goes from working fine to not working at all and leave the rider stranded. Because they do tend to degrade over thousands of miles they do require periodic replacement to keep the bike running at full performance, but they really are quite reliable. With normal, occasional maintenance they work just fine, and they are not terribly expensive to replace. The tools required to properly install and set points are not expensive.

When set up correctly installing electronic ignition on a machine that came with points can be good in that electronic ignition does not require periodic maintenance. However, because electronic ignition systems generally fail hard if they do fail there is a risk of being stranded if the electronic ignition suffers a problem. I have read of several instances where this has happened. Also, switching from points to electronic ignition requires a fairly substantial outlay of cash.

Personally, if a vehicle came with points I would not replace them with electronic ignition, and if a vehicle came with electronic ignition I would not replace it with points. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 05 Nov 2019 18:10 #813615

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That's a fair point Ed and well taken. I will be doing my points tomorrow if all goes well. And my carb tuner just came in as well so tomorrow should be a fun day.
'77 KZ650 in progress...

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 07 Nov 2019 20:04 #813698

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Update:

Got the new points and condensers installed, took my time and carefully set the timing. Got it so 1/4 are right on the F mark and 2/3 are slightly to the left of the mark (after F in rotation). Still didn't start up, so I checked for spark.

3 has a nice spark right between the gap. 4 has faint spark and it looks like its coming from under the node/cylinder. Is this what it means if a plug is fouled?

Backstory: when I did get her running for a bit last week, it was running very rich. Black smoke out the exhaust. After a bit of adjusting the fuel mix screw and idle screw, I got the mixture healthier. This must have gunked up the plugs pretty good right? Should I replace or try cleaning them?
'77 KZ650 in progress...

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 08 Nov 2019 17:34 #813729

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I was able to start it today after replacing the plugs with new ones, rechecking the ignition gaps/timing. I tried to really get both 1/4 and 2/3 firing right at the F mark but whatever I did I couldn't. If I set 1/4 exactly on point and I maxed out the adjustment on the points bracket so that 2/3 has the most amount of adjustment, The best I could get 2/3 was about 2-3mm after the F mark. Not sure what this means? I max out the bracket on the 2/3 as well and it seems like its not enough.

Anyway, I was only able to get it started by backing out the fuel mixture screw (making it more rich). I had the choke at about 3/4 and throttle closed. When I had the mix screws in (leaner) you could hear it trying to turn over and it was close but it wouldn't go.

At this mixture, it's running very lean, lots of smokey exhaust and even some sparks out the exhaust. Also, my idle is very jumpy which I think is because carbs need to be synced. Why does it have to run so rich to start? I'm thinking that the air ratio is too high, but maybe syncing it would help? Maybe just one or two of the carbs are causing a very lean mixture ? Any thoughts welcome!
'77 KZ650 in progress...

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 08 Nov 2019 17:50 #813730

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The KZ650-B1 points plate should look like the one pictured below. It should have plenty of room for adjustment because not only the entire plate can be rotated but also each set of points can be further adjusted. If yours does not have the two adjustment places pointed to by the arrows someone has installed a later points plate.

Regarding startup - the choke should be opened most of the way when the engine is cold. As it warms up the choke lever should be pushed down into the closed position. After the engine is warm the choke lever should remain closed when starting and running the bike. Ed

1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 08 Nov 2019 17:57 #813731

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Hi Ed,

Yes that's how my plate looks. I will try again tomorrow but I did play with the secondary adjustment per point as well. I maxed out the left one rotated clockwise so its sitting on the bottom of the adjustment oval. I did this to try and give myself as much adjustment room on the right points. When I had my multimeter hooked up I was not getting any reading at the F mark no matter how much I adjusted the right points alone. Ill try again tomorrow by maxing out the left points the other way, timing the left points perfectly then I should see a significant difference in terms of what position I get a reading. Will try.

I had choke on full at first, and then I was just trying different positions of choke and throttle to see if I heard any difference. The main difference was made by backing out the fuel mix screws. Why would it need to run so rich to start? Does that indicate carb might be way out of sync?
'77 KZ650 in progress...

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 08 Nov 2019 18:11 #813732

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I doubt it would be sync. The pilots may not be clean. Pic of the bike?
Steve
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 08 Nov 2019 18:13 #813733

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Hmm I had the carbs and jets cleaned and new gaskets installed. I have pics and what I've done so far posted here:

kzrider.com/kunena/11-projects/611623-77...0b-restoration-build ?
'77 KZ650 in progress...

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 08 Nov 2019 19:27 #813734

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Pilots may be too lean.
Steve
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 10 Nov 2019 09:35 #813793

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You were right Ed, I had to play with the ignition plate for some time but I finally got it exactly right. I get the points firing right at F. I've charged the battery, it shows 13.5 V, points replaced, ignition timed, gap set, choke full, fuel mix screw 3 turns out, carbs cleaned and rebuilt, new spark plugs. Still doesn't start. What am I missing? Whats next to try?

I think I'm going to go grab some starter fluid and spray it in the air intake. If that starts it up then I have a fuel problem right? Probably need to try cleaning the carbs again?
'77 KZ650 in progress...

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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 10 Nov 2019 14:40 #813812

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Tried a couple things today. Starter fluid in the air intake sputtered the engine a couple times but not much and not reliably. I then noticed my carb slides were very high, I thought they were set lower than that. Since I think the leanness is the issue, I dropped the cylinders down. Even at the minimum position I had probably about 4 mm gap, which was significantly lower than before. After setting all four to the lowest setting, still no luck starting but it was sounding a bit better.

I then did a spark check/compression test. These new sparks are again fouled... 1 of them have some spark but its crappy, 2 of them have no spark at all, and the last one is grounding itself, spark never reaches across. What makes the sparks foul so fast? They're all wet and black.

My compression test surprised me, I was happy to see 125 psi on cyl 1 and 2 and 130 on cyl 3 and 4! (I did the test with all plugs out, throttle wide open).

So I can rule out compression as a problem. Timing is set properly. I've richened my ratio. I can try new spark plugs again tomorrow but before I do is there something else I should look at?
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 10 Nov 2019 18:09 #813826

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Are the coils switched? I've done that. :blush:
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 Yesterday 05:43 #813847

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I hope not! How can I ensure the order is correct? Both coils have wires labelled 1 and 4 so I guess previous owner replaced the 2/3 one with a 1/4 but they should be the same right? How can I test to see that the wires are ordered correctly?

I will check the resistance of the coils today and see if I find anything interesting.

Also, if the coils were switched, would it have started at all? I did get it to start twice on brand new spark plugs each time, and all four cylinders were running because the exhaust was hot on all four. Doesn't that indicate the coils should be working and ordered correctly?
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 Yesterday 06:56 #813852

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Sounds like they're not switched.
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 Today 07:18 #813902

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I've ordered a set of replacement throttle cables to remove the slacky cable as a source of weird idling.

So since everything else seems okay, my theory now is that when I do get it to run on new spark plugs, I should tune and sync the carbs right away. I'm thinking that because it does start and then it runs rich-ish, and I'm not riding it at all, I get the plugs all sooty and they never get a chance to get hot enough to get cleaned up. Then I let the bike sit over night or for a couple of days before trying again and by then the carbon is built up?

If I can tune it right away and get the mix right and maybe take it around the block, then finally my spark plugs might stop fouling? Just a theory.

One thing I didn't do yet is check the floats. I'm going to get some tubing and measure the floats while I wait for the cables to come in.
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 Today 07:20 #813903

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Did you do the clear tube test?
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Starting issues! Need help diagnosing KZ650B1 Today 07:32 #813906

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SWest wrote: Did you do the clear tube test?
Steve


That's the one check I haven't done yet on the carbs, the float heights. I'll grab some tube today and see how that goes.
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