Learning to ride; habits and resources

Also, there's usually chicks taking the course. And 125 miles ain't all that much, I did that on Saturday.

Not bragging, either, but I did 3300 in six days. 10000 + since Nov, and that's just on one of the bikes. Take your time learning and be safe and attentive. Watch all your surroundings.

hi and welcome.been riding 30 + years been a lot of fun but i know road rash sucks too.i would say take the course.also get the big pitcher everything front back sides up down.look ahead know whats going on around you at all times .and dont assume that that little old lady ,man, girl, boy,dog, cat ect. seen you when you saw them look right at you it dont work that way.you know what your doing dont worry about that .worry about what they are doing. thats my opinion. but opinions are like as#$#%holes ever ones got one.so much to learn.good luck have fun.

I don't see how knowing what counter steering is can help a rider. I mean, it's good to know (I guess) but it's not a skill or anything.

I think the biggest skill one can learn is emergency braking and using body position to counter the bikes momentum.

The biggest tip would be to look at the drivers face in a car, not the position of the car. Also, make yourself visable.

Seat time and don't be stupid.

You don't really need the MSF class, you can learn the same way I did. Road rash only hurts for a little while, and the nurses in Emergency rooms are sometimes cute. It's best to have some sort of insurance so you still have an income while healing, and you can make up all kinds of stories about how you got your scars. Attending the funeral of your riding buddy is a real bummer, but that's life.

When I started riding 50 years ago at age 11, there wasn't any such thing as a MSF course.

650ed wrote: Also, you really should read the Hurt Report (look it up on the web) as it is by far the most comprehensive report on motorcycle accidents and their causes. You may notice in his summary of 55 findings related to motorcycle accidents "#24. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents."

Wow, this really got me thinking and prompted a bit of research, mostly because it's so incredulous. I mean it's soooo skewed. Then I realized it's not the statistic that's at fault, it's the interpretation offered. The Hurt report was was conducted in 1976 just 3 years after the MIC founded the MSF the largest MC training organization in the US. So it stands to reason that fewer motorcyclists were formally trained at this time. The percentage of formally trained riders is hugely important in interpreting this statistic. If fewer than 8% of the riders were formally trained then training would have a negative impact on crash avoidance and vice versa for greater than 8%. Even the full Hurt report makes no speculation about what percentage of the riding population was formally trained.

Since it's inception in 1973, the MSF has trained 3.5 million riders and now train 400,000 yearly. If the interpretation offered is correct, it would stand to reason that motorcycle accidents and fatalities would be reduced in correlation with the increase in training. They have not, in fact fatality rates per 100 milion miles travel for motorcycles nearly doubled from 1995-2004 according to the NHTSA ( www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/m...ident-statistics.htm ) Furthermore 23 studies since the Hurt Report draw conclusions that formal training either has a negligible or negative impact on crash avoidance: wmoon.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/motorcycl...ce-training-part-ii/

Don't drink too much of the MSF Koolaid, they exist at the pleasure of the Motorcycle Industry Council (they fund the MSF), which is why they will always recommend regulatory improvements to the rider (helmets/training) and never the bikes. Which, by the way, dovetails with the Hurt Report so well one is tempted to think it's not coincidence.

KZErider wrote: Not bragging, either, but I did 3300 in six days. 10000 + since Nov, and that's just on one of the bikes. Take your time learning and be safe and attentive. Watch all your surroundings.

I just rolled past 170 last night 45-ish miles, my longest and fastest (just a bit over 60mph) ride yet. I'm 36 and a pretty stubborn and conservative rider. I take it easy on the corners, my chicken strips are huge (and I don't care), I'm constantly scanning for places where oncoming traffic may turn left, and I noticed I usually leave well over 2sec following distance. My bro in law (rinding mentor) said "I don't want to make you do anything you're uncomfortable with." I told him I didn't think he could. One thing I was kinda surprised about was how riding over 50mph for a while can mess up your in-town riding. The bike handles differently at cruising speed and when I got back into the city I noticed my stops felt more wobbly and less precise than I had worked them up to be.

Riding at speed is about the easiest part of riding a motorcycle. Just watch out for hazards and the bike drives itself compared to lower speeds.
MSF teaches basics as a fondation for you to build on with seat time and experience.
The most common area for problems with bike handling from my experience with new riders is at low speeds. Examples are like turning left off a road after traffic clears and losing control and dumping over, or my favorite turning around on a side slope at low speed in a tight parking lot usually with gravel involved and large numbers of other bikers watching.
Watch how you interpet data on training and accident rates. Grandpa had a old saying ( Figures dont lie, But liars sure can figure )
Stats have to take into account the large number of new riders in non traditional groups. Largest growing segment of new riders are ladies, Then the adult males who are getting back into riding or the midlife crisis group that want to hang out at the Harley dealers and pretend to be dew rag wearing badasses.
Now that I vented, Hope you take a course, but only you can decide that. I want to extend the offer to you to join me here in lower Michigan to go riding and also sit down and do the one on one bull sessions where you can ask what ever you want in privacy. Hope to see you this Summer as you only live a hour and a half away.
Safe Travels, Dave

There's a lot of stuff in the Hurt report that has not changed one bit, especially when it comes to the behavior patterns of car drivers, and there is a lot of information in the riding classes that can help a person ride better, control their bike better, and ride safer.

But of course you are correct. Even though others, both experienced and new riders, find formal training very helpful, it would no doubt reduce your understanding of how to ride safely. With all your miles (170 already - gosh!) in the saddle and experience what could possibly be learned that you have not already absorbed. Please wear a helmet; I'm sure you believe that to be more MSF conspiratorial BS, but it might just save you when you have your 1st accident - it saved me.

watch the front tires of all the vehicles you are around.
the front tire will be the very first indicator of what the vehicle is going to do next.

reading the pace is a good place to start.
www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122..._pace_nick_ienatsch/

hth,
leon

Well here's some other thoughts not offered yet:

Get a dirt bike. I started riding when I was really young, rural Iowa, lots of farm fields and backyard motox stuff. I'm not a flyer, I'm not a jumper, but I learned how to handle a bike that way. If you learn the physics of momentum and inertia in off-camber, rutted dirt tracks and the like, you'll have a better understanding of what you bike can and can't do on the road.

That said, I'm 33 and just now moved up to a big bike (83 KZ1100A3). It was a few years between those childhood dirt sessions, and then in between I rode a Kawi Super Sherpa, a little single-cylinder 250 dual sport. In fact, I rode that 250 around town (Albuquerque) for several thousand miles (25+ miles to work each way, 5 days a week) before picking up my KZ. On the weekends, I'd hit the single-track dirt trails in the Sandia mountains not 10 miles from my house. Obviously, a smaller dual sport (thing weights like 350 pounds soaking wet) is going to behave quite differently than a big street bike, BUT you'll have other factors to balance it out.

For example, street/highway riding on a dual sport, you've got knobby tires up front and back (until I switched to some crossover rubber, more on that later) and a shitload of suspension travel. When you grab a handful of front brakes on a dual sport on knobbies, the bike suspension moves a ton - you have to anticipate your braking points farther in advance, and account for things like oily patches, joints in the road, and other factors that do indeed effect your braking performance. On a light bike, as well, your rear brakes are more variable, depending on how you sit on the bike and how urgent your braking needs. Imagine mountain biking, your front brakes are enough to throw you over the bars, so in order to get even braking front and rear, you have to position yourself farther back on the bicycle, getting that weight as far back behind the rear axles as possible, giving the rear wheel more grip/weight and thus, more stopping power. The same applies to a lighter dualsport or 250 street bike. In order to be in the right position, you have to be watching much farther ahead, at all times, in order to be prepared should some jackass pull out in front of you.

Now, obviously, a bigger street bike is different, but if you learn how to feel a bike moving under you over rough terrain and loose dirt/rock, going uphill and down, you learn how to position your body to be most effective when you need to change the direction of the bike quickly. Your bike is a middleweight, so you can effect the way the bike handles with enough practice.

Now, as for tires, when I switched from a knobby rear on the dual sport to a crossover/hybrid, it changed the braking and handling quite a bit. This is true for almost all bikes. I have a thread going about tire talk, if you flip through to my most recent post you'll see a photo of my bald old Dunlops, actually showing threads (BTW, don't ever let them get that bad. Yes, I did. Yes, I rolled the dice every time I hit the streets, but I'm broke so whatever. I fully knew the risks, made me super worried and ruined my rides...). So know your tires. If they're old and stiff, and don't have any tread pattern left, and the rear is so flat it looks like a car's tires, your turning radius and lean will be greatly effected. Once I put new rubber on the rear of both the dual sport and the KZ1100, I had to adjust to the way the bike turned - smoothly, in an even arc, as opposed to the weird sudden turn of a worn-out rear. The Harley-Davidson branded Dunlops on the KZ were stiff, and took a while to heat up, and the first time I took a spirited ride up the backside of the mountains I had a code-brown moment when i neglected to consider, 'Hey,maybe I can't keep up with those Ducati's, on my 30 year-old bike with 5 year old rubber'. The bike was willing, I'd had some knee-dragging practice on an R6, but I got caught up in the moment trailing a bunch of fully-kitted out Ducati dudes. It wasn't JUST the tires but they play a huge part.

Finally, I work(ed) at the H-D dealership in Albuquerque, and one of my jobs was to prep rental bikes for customers. I worked hand-in-hand with a paper-pusher who knew a thing or two about safe riding, and we both had moments where we became very concerned about a rider's skill level. You cannot just hop on a fully-loaded Ultra-Classic Unlimited with full hardpacks and fairing, floorboards and all of that, and some people insist they are capable despite the white-knuckle grips and grimaces of fear once they realize 'maaaaaybe this bike is too heavy'. I saw a few bikes come back on flatbeds, our customers having been airlifted to a local hospital after getting too comfortable on a 1,000lb, $40,000 mammoth cruiser. That said we had a Sporty get totaled as well, guy was going too fast around town and cartwheeled over the hood of some jackass cager who turned in front of him.

Point ^ is, hubris did those riders in. They lost focus fiddling around with controls, radio, whatever, and go flying off the edge of the road (family friend did that, lucky to be alive, spent 6 months in body rig with broken everything).

The solution H-D offers is called Rider's Edge. It is geared towards their cruiser-style big bikes, but they start the beginner course on a little 400 Buell Blast single cylinder. A couple classroom sessions followed by time on a secure 'range' on those little bikes. I watched more than a few dudes full of themselves wipe out on the little bikes, they were cocky and thought they could skate through the classes and the riding portion, and they were wrong. "I been riding all my life' dude actually ran into a light pole (Only hazard on the entire 300x300 paved area, lolz). Some guys panic and grab a handful of front brake, and over the bars they went. I've seen some of the funniest, most frightening shit working at the H-D dealership (riding boots pinned between the highway bars and the engine, no rider...ouch). I got to sit in on the classes, learned some things, remembered things I'd forgotten, etc. One of the 'students' in the class I sat in on bought a brand new Heritage Softtail, and got in an accident about a week later (another cager, *sigh) but he walked away because he was prepared, saw the accident coming and did everything he was taught to minimize the impact and accident.

If you do enroll in, for instance, the Harley program, you get a big discount on gear and a discounted rental for a Harley (where they offer rentals). For about $100 you can rent a 'smaller' H-D for a day, or a V-rod, etc. It's a good deal, honestly, I'm not a big H-D fan but I've ridden every model/make and some are more fun than others...

So besides all that, ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS wear a helmet. Don't even think about it. I'd avoid the half-buckets you see the H-D folks wear, and go for a 3/4 or full-face, I've got a Shoei full-face 'convertible' where the face portion flips up. Spend some $$ on a decent riding jacket with a bare minimum of shoulder, elbow and back protection, it doesn't seem like much but can make the difference between bruises and broken bones. A decent set of gloves are a must, the first thing you do when you go down is stick your hands out, right? Boots and jeans are better than shorts and sandals (I mean, wtf you guys? SQUIDS!).

You may have heard this stuff a hundred times already, and you'll hear it a thousand more if you ask, because it's the simple steps and experience that will save your life WHEN, not if, you go down. I haven't been down on pavement yet, and I credit that luck with being alert, aware, and prepared for every assclown on four wheels within 1,000 yards of my bike pulling out in front of me. Since I picked up my KZ1100 in october '11, I've logged several thousand miles (2x trips from ABQ to Iowa City, daily driving, and several longer trips around New Mexico of several hundred miles each way) so I'm probably due for a moment sometime soon. It will happen. I can only hope I'm prepared, and that I'll remember the things I've learned from years of dirt riding and sitting through that BORING AS SHIT Rider's Edge class. I've got new tires and new brakes so I've done about all I can.

Good luck, have fun, and keep both wheels on the ground, shiny green side up. Enjoy the ride.

Street Fighter LTD wrote: my favorite turning around on a side slope at low speed in a tight parking lot usually with gravel involved and large numbers of other bikers watching.

This happens EVERY WEEKEND at Thunderbird H-D in Albuquerque. They even went and re-surfaced and expanded the parking lot to cut down on the dumps, and it still happens at least once a week, lol.

Nothing much worse than dumping your 'baby' in front of a bunch of dudes you were just showing off all your chrome bits to. ROFL they'd talk all kinds of smack about my KZ1100 and then 'RIDER DOWN! RIDER DOWN!'. Funny stuff watching a bunch of...err...well, typical H-D riders, all kitted up in leather and H-D logos, waddle over to some pissed-off embarrassed dude/couple that just caused a couple thousand dollars in damage to their bike.

LULZ every time. At least, in those slow-speed incidents, the only thing likely to be injured is pride, and maybe a bruise or two.

650ed wrote: There's a lot of stuff in the Hurt report that has not changed one bit, especially when it comes to the behavior patterns of car drivers, and there is a lot of information in the riding classes that can help a person ride better, control their bike better, and ride safer.

But of course you are correct. Even though others, both experienced and new riders, find formal training very helpful, it would no doubt reduce your understanding of how to ride safely. With all your miles (170 already - gosh!) in the saddle and experience what could possibly be learned that you have not already absorbed. Please wear a helmet; I'm sure you believe that to be more MSF conspiratorial BS, but it might just save you when you have your 1st accident - it saved me.

When I was 17 and a volunteer EMT with my local Ambulance Assn, I watched a drunk biker die in my ambulance because he was speeding, dumped it on railroad tracks, and didn't fasten his chin strap. A stream of blood shooting out his intubation tube (his face was literally too broken to bag him with a face mask) ensured I'll always wear a helmet despite my state recently repealing their helmet law. In fact that incident kept me off motorcycles for almost 20 years. I just find it odd, that I asked what that "a lot of information in the riding class" is because I'd rather not blow an entire weekend in the class, and consequently my wife's weekend, and I want to practice it. In response I get a bunch condescension and scare tactics. I asked what the alternatives to MSF are and I'm told road rash, emergency rooms, and funerals, WTF?