TOPIC:

531blackbanshee wrote: i have ran locally ceramic coated domes and teflon coated skirts on forged wiseco pistons in my banshee for years with great results.

the teflon is like bearings for the skirt and the ceramic helps protect the the dome from lean outs.

imho,
leon

Teflon I would do no question. Not likely to cause catastrophic failure if it flakes off. Ceramic coat, on the other hand...

Your local sources must be better than ours. Our local outfits can't even get chrome to stay on a bumper for a week...and don't bother asking for a quote, either...they always say leave the parts with them and they will figure out a hostage ransom price when it's done. It might take anywhere from two weeks to two decades. Don't expect any warranty, either. How's that for customer service?

No wonder I get everything I can't do myself done in the U.S.A.

Kray-Z wrote:

531blackbanshee wrote: i have ran locally ceramic coated domes and teflon coated skirts on forged wiseco pistons in my banshee for years with great results.

the teflon is like bearings for the skirt and the ceramic helps protect the the dome from lean outs.

imho,
leon

Teflon I would do no question. Not likely to cause catastrophic failure if it flakes off. Ceramic coat, on the other hand...

Your local sources must be better than ours. Our local outfits can't even get chrome to stay on a bumper for a week...and don't bother asking for a quote, either...they always say leave the parts with them and they will figure out a hostage ransom price when it's done. It might take anywhere from two weeks to two decades. Don't expect any warranty, either. How's that for customer service?

No wonder I get everything I can't do myself done in the U.S.A.

A friend of mine is doing up his Z900 (now Z1260) apart from many external mods (including Kevlar wheels/ forks from an R6) he has ceramic coating on the ports, head, exhaust pipe and he has teflon (I believe) coating on the pistons.
He should have this bike going in about three weeks, he is also worried about overheating (Perth Australia can get very hot) so he went to all this trouble to avoid an engine failure.

Finally got a bit more done on this project recently. Built an intake manifold that goes through a firewall and grabs air via a K&N filter underneath the seat. Only mocked up right now, waiting for my silicone couplers and then ill powder coat it and throw it in the oven.
Not only does this cut down on the issue of turbulence when using pod filters (see Greg Cope's tuning tips), it also keeps got air out and gives me the ability to mount a bung for my intake air temp sensor.
Also got my crankshaft back from Fast by Gast, top notch work, well worth the money. The engine will be going together in the coming days,
Head was sent out for a valve job and the GSXR injectors are getting cleaned, balanced, and spray pattern checked. Hopefully this will be a running bike in the coming weeks.

Re Cooling: my thoughts are to get the max airflow over the motor, repositioning the oil coolers to headlight or tail might be an idea.

Also I like the earlier kz pre gpz type of finned exhaust collets, with extra long studs and pike nuts. Matt black is the best colour for radiating heat.

There is also the possibility of drilling the fins with small holes to increase cooling ,this is controversial but the science seems to make sense to me.

Has anyone tried water injection on one of these?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)

The finned exhaust collets on the earlier KZ (like my Z1R) are not really better because they are metal cast which holds heat, whereas the aluminium cast ala GPZ collets should dissipate better.
With the fins being drilled, keep in mind that surface area exposed to the air is the critical part, if you expose more area by drilling than it works but in some cases you lessen the surface area by drilling so it might not (not 100% certain of this theory with air flow involved).

The earlier aircooled two strokes also had issues with the fins where they "ringed" under certain vibration (because the fins were very deep) so they fitted rubber bungs.
Where is the battery stowed? just curious. This bike will be a monster, can't wait to hear how it goes.

One thing I have noticed with my FJ1200 (standard apart from porting, exhaust and minor changes) in the Perth (Oz) summer I lose a lot of power compared to now (our winter), During the summer some bikes (friends) would pull away at certain speeds but now its the FJ that is the more powerful, so aircooled bikes suffer a lot (without going through re-jetting) compared to the liquid cooled.

Theory is correct.
More area expose, better Exchange.

Like a big radiator vs. Small radiator.

Is there any downside to drilling the fins ? I am very tempted to try it!

Mk2Rookie wrote: Is there any downside to drilling the fins ? I am very tempted to try it!

If not done for lightness the hole you drill must be the same or smaller diameter than the thickness of the material you are drilling or you will actually reduce the exposed surface area you are trying to shed heat from.
A hole the same diameter as the thickness will increase the exposed surface area approx. 2.5 times but there is an offset due to the loss of heat sink capability from the material removed.
Big holes positioned correctly can help channel cooling air to unexposed hot spots at speed but will make the thing run hotter in traffic etc.
Drilling a large shallow counter sunk hole (dimple ) that does not fully penetrate through the material will increase exposed surface area whilst minimising the loss of heat sink material available .
Yoshimura used to cover the engine crankcase and barrel surfaces with these dimples to increase the surface area whilst also losing weight.

in all air cooled fields , even high-performance , ( VW , Vespa ... ) I never saw holes on the fins .
there will be a reason ...

Bozo wrote:
One thing I have noticed with my FJ1200 (standard apart from porting, exhaust and minor changes) in the Perth (Oz) summer I lose a lot of power compared to now (our winter), During the summer some bikes (friends) would pull away at certain speeds but now its the FJ that is the more powerful, so aircooled bikes suffer a lot (without going through re-jetting) compared to the liquid cooled.

Hey, all engines loose power when overheated. Mostly due to changes in the combustion process with higher combustion chamber temps. Air cooled ones are far more susceptible to it. With the average air cooled 70's - 80's bikes I expect to loose about 5 - 10% on a hot day on the open road, up to 25% in stop and go traffic on a hot day.

And a word of caution, when the engine gets that hot, best to back off on that throttle or, better yet, stop and let it cool down for a while (and hopefully traffic will dissipate too). Otherwise, you risk heat distortion and other bad things. Not just advice for air cooled, either. My liquid cooled (and E.F.I.) Yamaha R1 drops about 20 HP and runs like a bag of cow dung when it gets really hot (in city traffic), even with the radiator fans going.

Oh, about drilling holes and dimples in cooling fins...my science says no holes; maybe the dimples (very shallow and rounded ones), but only if you have way to much time on your hands...bigger fins (surface area, not thickness) and more of them on the head (especially the head), cylinder, and oil sump would seem to be the best approach. Know anyone who has a TIG welder and a bunch of scrap aluminum sheet metal?

Hey jberger - I wouldn't bother with the finned collars on the exhaust. No benefit in keeping the engine cooler (no better, no worse), so unless you like the looks...I saw some huge (like 5" in diameter!) finned billet machined exhaust collars that guys used to put on Triumph and Norton twins back in the seventies - looked fantastic, but no functional benefits - they still overheated badly in traffic. At that point, those fins are just cooling the head pipes, not the head...and blocking some cool airflow to the head when the bike is moving, also.

Yosh, Mori, RC, AHC, and other pro teams experimented with a lot of theories - some worked, some didn't, some weren't worth the effort...

Kray-Z wrote:

Bozo wrote:
One thing I have noticed with my FJ1200 (standard apart from porting, exhaust and minor changes) in the Perth (Oz) summer I lose a lot of power compared to now (our winter), During the summer some bikes (friends) would pull away at certain speeds but now its the FJ that is the more powerful, so aircooled bikes suffer a lot (without going through re-jetting) compared to the liquid cooled.

Hey, all engines loose power when overheated. Mostly due to changes in the combustion process with higher combustion chamber temps. Air cooled ones are far more susceptible to it. With the average air cooled 70's - 80's bikes I expect to loose about 5 - 10% on a hot day on the open road, up to 25% in stop and go traffic on a hot day.

And a word of caution, when the engine gets that hot, best to back off on that throttle or, better yet, stop and let it cool down for a while (and hopefully traffic will dissipate too). Otherwise, you risk heat distortion and other bad things. Not just advice for air cooled, either. My liquid cooled (and E.F.I.) Yamaha R1 drops about 20 HP and runs like a bag of cow dung when it gets really hot (in city traffic), even with the radiator fans going.

The FJ1200 is notorious for running hot, ask any legends racer. For some reason (I assume the engine metal work design etc seem to prevent the engine from blowing its guts). I ride the bike in over 40 degrees C in traffic, which would make my Z1R cry in pain and this thing just keeps on going without issues (apart from a power lose).
The Z1r has no engine faring so it runs cooler but fuel lock in the heat sometimes causes the engine to stall at lights (The fuel cap does have good venting but the fuel boils)