TOPIC:

wrote:

wrote:

wrote:

wrote:

We are being not so gently nudged into EVs. For the save the planet crowd, every rise in the price of gas is a celebration.





 

What's not being considered, because it's not considered 'Proper News', is the fact that world wide use of EVs will require the largest open pit mining operations in all of history to extract the metals needed for all those batteries.
Bill

Not only the devastation caused by those open pit mining sources. What about disposing of the batteries. Today it’s estimated that only 5% of batteries in EV’s on the Road today will be recycled that leaves the rest of them to either be stockpiled in storage which creates a huge potential for fire with the lithium ion batteries (ever tried to but out a burning lithium battery) or they are just tossed into a landfill, which doesn’t alleviate the potential fire hazard. Also the cost to replace the batteries, the battery packs will need to be replaced when they reach 80% efficiency. Currently that is estimated at around 100,000 miles of vehicle use. Estimated cost to replace those batteries can be up to $60,000. 

That 5% figure is in the US, In Australia we recycle over 10% now and a huge industry is being set up to extract up to 90+% of all the metals, minerals in used lithium Batteries, it is a massive business opportunity,  although I highly doubt Lithium will remain the main source of battery tech for much longer.  Australia has the worlds largest deposits of Lithium and it's  High grade, I fail to see the difference between the huge open cut coal mines and the much smaller Lithium mines, not to mention the massive amounts of heavy metal pollution and methane escape from coal mining, burning. I'd also like to talk about the "Trillions" needed to upgrade the grid, smaller localised grids make far more sense using cleaner energy and local infrastructure,  they also help limit disruption in the case of blackouts, that's where we're headed here in Australia and it makes far more sense. I find it rather funny to see all the arguments against moving forward with cleaner energy considering the massive problems caused by burning coal, They include mercury, lead, cadmium, arsenic, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, particulates, and various other heavy metals.and even nuclear, disposing of waste with a half life of 10's of thousands of years or more. Look at the massive disaster that is the Centralia coal mine in Pennsylvania, and that's just one example, there's others like that all over the world, we have a few here in my home state , not anywhere near the level of Centralia though.  When it comes to this topic,  I rarely see reasonable/ rational discussion, its always worst case scenario's completely leaving out the problems with existing technologies, these arguments were similar to the ones used when the horse was being superseded by the automobile, look how far the car came in a very short amount of time..

I don’t think anyone here is apposed to development of new better energy technology. As Steve says we have time. We all want to make sure our grandkids have a word they can live in. Problem is,  they are pushing and the technology and supporting elements are not available currently. We here are still stinging from the 2009 green energy stimulus scheme. 38 so-called green companies were given a combined 2.2 billion in taxpayers money. They either went bankrupt or faulted on the loans. Solyndra was in the news the most but others got away with far more of our monies. Again I’m just saying slow the roll and determine the “What If”. We appear to be heading down the same path. What’s the definition of insanity? As you mentioned everything is in development, battery mineral recovery, localized power grids. Let’s develop the support systems before we push items that need them, putting the cart before the horse phrase rings true. 

The United States is already utilizing localized power grids. Our energy infrastructure consists of over 7,700 power plants. We unlike Australia just don’t have the room to add more. We need to update our existing localized power grid to handle the EV demand. Again build the infrastructure first. As for coal seam fires. They have been around for 6,000 years, example, Australia’s Burning Mountain. Yes they release dangerous chemicals, and yes man had a hand in creating more of them. Companies are working on technologies to collect those gasses and turn them into energy producing items, along with producing items from those gasses that are currently being mined. If this technology works less mining will be needed. When handed lemons one make lemonade. 

wrote:

Consider the countless millions of gasoline powered vehicles in use today, and the fact that a lot of people are just plain happy to have them...

I'm sorry, but it is completely unrealistic to assume that all those vehicles (among others like our beloved motorcycles and boats) can simply be willed out of existence either.
How on God's green earth would we ever be able to deal with the impractical implications of that?

Consider:

hedgescompany.com/automotive-market-rese...lists-and-marketing/

Wow, 290 million vehicles in the US only. Wonder how many world wide these pipe dreamers are trying to magically make disappear. That doesn’t include planes, trains or boats, all of our toys, motorcycles, dirt bikes, side by sides, jet skies. What about our military and their gas dependent equipment. Standby power generators, gas or diesel powered welders/compressors on service trucks that keep all these things on the road. Farm tractors, lawnmowers, geez kinda big list when you start to write it out. 

Let it happen naturally. Stop subsidizing ethanol. Stop subsidizing green energy. The capitalists will start producing EVs when people want to buy them. I'm so sick of nanny state government forcing me into this crap. 

They actually think we will let them take control and we "will have nothing and be happy."    They are running out of time. 2020 should have done it for them.  What they did do is wake up the world. All is being reveled and they will be known for what they are. NUTS 
Steve

Wow, 290 million vehicles in the US only. Wonder how many world wide these pipe dreamers are trying to magically make disappear. That doesn’t include planes, trains or boats, all of our toys, motorcycles, dirt bikes, side by sides, jet skies. What about our military and their gas dependent equipment. Standby power generators, gas or diesel powered welders/compressors on service trucks that keep all these things on the road. Farm tractors, lawnmowers, geez kinda big list when you start to write it out. 

Think about the power grid required to charge all this and what will fuel it ? I accept that change will have to come but before self charging technology etc can catch up I think they need to press "pause" A lot of domestic homes and workplaces don't have designated parking so central charging points will need to be installed ( the supply cable would need to be the size of a sewer pipe !)

100 years ago Edison wanted to have us on DC current. That would mean there would have to be power generating stations in every city. Tesla was promoting A/C current. He quit Edison and went on his own. He needed a backer so Mr. Westinghouse backed him to power the world's fair. It was a success and they got the contract for the Niagara Falls power plant. It's an old story that plays out over and over again. Edison threatened to sue until he could buy the patents and wound up with them. Same kind of thing are happening now but times have changed and the "Elite" are losing their power. 
Steve

wrote:

Let it happen naturally. Stop subsidizing ethanol. Stop subsidizing green energy. The capitalists will start producing EVs when people want to buy them. I'm so sick of nanny state government forcing me into this crap. 

+100 for stop subsidising ethanol, its a moronic joke, lets use food for fuel, ridiculous, But, while we're at it, stop subsidising fossil fuels. Coal ,Gas and nuclear, for energy are the biggest subsidised industries in the world,   even the playing field and it will sort itself out. You'll soon find out just how unviable fossil fuels are becoming, and why the price will just keep going up. Fuel stations here were working on profit margins of around 2 cents a litre for a very long time {decades}, recently the have upped this to 25 to 30 cents a litre pushing up the cost of everything  considerably, I'm sick to death of being screwed over by huge business conglomerates, they have been allowed to get far to big and powerful and no one is big enough to keep them under control. 
No ones forcing you to do anything, its the future, whether you like it or not, we just can't keep filling the atmosphere with toxic pollutants, and at the same time, mow down millions of acres of the trees , all in the name of "progress", its a zero sum game or worse, everyone looses..., As i said before, it has parallels with the demise of the horse and cart and the people opposing change are the loudest voices. If you flat out think we aren't damaging the environment with the way we are doing things now, then I just can't help that . 

Steve, Edison stole a hell of a lot of Tesla's, and others work, Edison gets credit for others work. When you start tossing round  words like the "elite", whoever they are, you diminish anything you're trying to say. When big business is involved there will always be liars and charlatans driven by greed and power, but to label anything you either don't understand or don't believe in,  a conspiracy theory,  is plain lazy and very typically modern USA. 

You misunderstood what I was saying. The ones in control know they are losing it and that's why they are doing what they're doing. Better things are coming. 
As I've been saying the last two years, We'll see. 
Steve

wrote:

Wow, 290 million vehicles in the US only. Wonder how many world wide these pipe dreamers are trying to magically make disappear. That doesn’t include planes, trains or boats, all of our toys, motorcycles, dirt bikes, side by sides, jet skies. What about our military and their gas dependent equipment. Standby power generators, gas or diesel powered welders/compressors on service trucks that keep all these things on the road. Farm tractors, lawnmowers, geez kinda big list when you start to write it out. 

Think about the power grid required to charge all this and what will fuel it ? I accept that change will have to come but before self charging technology etc can catch up I think they need to press "pause" A lot of domestic homes and workplaces don't have designated parking so central charging points will need to be installed ( the supply cable would need to be the size of a sewer pipe !)

We already have a lot of these charging points in shopping centres and other places Wookie, with thousands more being installed, no massive cables my friend, many here charge cars overnight from home. We have massive home solar here, almost every house in my area has rooftop solar, an average of 20 panels, most newer systems are 20 to 24 panels. The grid is already there, it may well need some changes but its already there, the only reason our grid hasn't been upgraded is purely due to politics.
Coincidently, due to the cost of coal going up, all our power prices are on the up again, some as much as 20%, the anti solar brigade will be pissed off,  but most of the people I know with home solar, won't notice a thing, because they already produce more power than they use, excess is sold back into the grid...
Australia has more solar energy per square metre than any country on earth, we'd be stupid not to take advantage of it. Also using solar to produce  hydrogen,  makes hydrogen a player in this too, as it becomes cost effective and extremely clean.   
Anyway, due to a lot of things, mainly disruption to the lead market players currently {and the deniers/flat earthers}, this transition is well under way and its the future, I'd love to keep my bikes and cars on the road forever, maybe there's a possibility that Hydrogen could play a part, but i'll likely be well dead when this is finally a reality, to expect no disruption is naive, but it'll happen, one way or the other....

Deniers/flat earthers 

wrote:

wrote:

Wow, 290 million vehicles in the US only. Wonder how many world wide these pipe dreamers are trying to magically make disappear. That doesn’t include planes, trains or boats, all of our toys, motorcycles, dirt bikes, side by sides, jet skies. What about our military and their gas dependent equipment. Standby power generators, gas or diesel powered welders/compressors on service trucks that keep all these things on the road. Farm tractors, lawnmowers, geez kinda big list when you start to write it out. 

Think about the power grid required to charge all this and what will fuel it ? I accept that change will have to come but before self charging technology etc can catch up I think they need to press "pause" A lot of domestic homes and workplaces don't have designated parking so central charging points will need to be installed ( the supply cable would need to be the size of a sewer pipe !)

We already have a lot of these charging points in shopping centres and other places Wookie, with thousands more being installed, no massive cables my friend, many here charge cars overnight from home. We have massive home solar here, almost every house in my area has rooftop solar, an average of 20 panels, most newer systems are 20 to 24 panels. The grid is already there, it may well need some changes but its already there, the only reason our grid hasn't been upgraded is purely due to politics.
Coincidently, due to the cost of coal going up, all our power prices are on the up again, some as much as 20%, the anti solar brigade will be pissed off,  but most of the people I know with home solar, won't notice a thing, because they already produce more power than they use, excess is sold back into the grid...
Australia has more solar energy per square metre than any country on earth, we'd be stupid not to take advantage of it. Also using solar to produce  hydrogen,  makes hydrogen a player in this too, as it becomes cost effective and extremely clean.   
Anyway, due to a lot of things, mainly disruption to the lead market players currently {and the deniers/flat earthers}, this transition is well under way and its the future, I'd love to keep my bikes and cars on the road forever, maybe there's a possibility that Hydrogen could play a part, but i'll likely be well dead when this is finally a reality, to expect no disruption is naive, but it'll happen, one way or the other....

Are you tell me that homes in your area are completely powering their homes with only solar. That is the only way they wouldn’t feel an increase as you mentioned. They are using it to heat water, cook food, heat and cool the home, and run the lights? No Natural Gas or propane is used. I don’t believe it. I seriously don’t believe that after all that there is enough to charge an EV. I especially don’t believe they do that and still have excess to sell back to the grid, net metering? If you buy at retail and sell at wholesale you will never have a surplus. No way the energy company would buy back at retail. Here in the states in 2019 they passed a bill to eliminate net metering and it’s looking more likely that any savings produced by buy back will be negligible. How long do you think big energy will continue to allow this to happen. They have investors to satisfy. 

wrote:

wrote:

Wow, 290 million vehicles in the US only. Wonder how many world wide these pipe dreamers are trying to magically make disappear. That doesn’t include planes, trains or boats, all of our toys, motorcycles, dirt bikes, side by sides, jet skies. What about our military and their gas dependent equipment. Standby power generators, gas or diesel powered welders/compressors on service trucks that keep all these things on the road. Farm tractors, lawnmowers, geez kinda big list when you start to write it out. 

Think about the power grid required to charge all this and what will fuel it ? I accept that change will have to come but before self charging technology etc can catch up I think they need to press "pause" A lot of domestic homes and workplaces don't have designated parking so central charging points will need to be installed ( the supply cable would need to be the size of a sewer pipe !)

We already have a lot of these charging points in shopping centres and other places Wookie, with thousands more being installed, no massive cables my friend, many here charge cars overnight from home. We have massive home solar here, almost every house in my area has rooftop solar, an average of 20 panels, most newer systems are 20 to 24 panels. The grid is already there, it may well need some changes but its already there, the only reason our grid hasn't been upgraded is purely due to politics.
Coincidently, due to the cost of coal going up, all our power prices are on the up again, some as much as 20%, the anti solar brigade will be pissed off,  but most of the people I know with home solar, won't notice a thing, because they already produce more power than they use, excess is sold back into the grid...
Australia has more solar energy per square metre than any country on earth, we'd be stupid not to take advantage of it. Also using solar to produce  hydrogen,  makes hydrogen a player in this too, as it becomes cost effective and extremely clean.   
Anyway, due to a lot of things, mainly disruption to the lead market players currently {and the deniers/flat earthers}, this transition is well under way and its the future, I'd love to keep my bikes and cars on the road forever, maybe there's a possibility that Hydrogen could play a part, but i'll likely be well dead when this is finally a reality, to expect no disruption is naive, but it'll happen, one way or the other....


 

Home charging isn't the issue (we have government grants to support the install of charge points here) what I was referring to was the significant number of people who can't charge at home or work that would need to go to a central point. A converted multi-storey car park with 400 charge points would need a significant power supply (this is the UK, the sun only comes out twice a year  )