what are 'Bad Igniter' symptoms?

One thing that may be temperature-related and affecting this is the temperature sensor that attaches to the rear of the cylinder. In fact, looking at the different parts of the electronics pieces of the fuel injection, it could be:

- bad throttle position switch
- bad/intermittent fuel pump or connections to the pump
- temperature sensor

There are several electrical/electronic things in the fuel injectors that would shut down all 4 injectors. I'm going to have to tackle them one at a time.

First I will follow you folks' advice and bust out my inductive timing light to check that first.

Intermittent bugs are hard to fix. You really prefer the dang thing to just completely 100% fail. Because if it only fails intermittently, to locate that one faulty part you have to get lucky and be checking it *right* when it's failing, and in this case the failure is pretty random.

One clue I'm going on is that when it is running in 'failure mode', opening the throttle enough will keep the bike running. That may indicate the throttle position switch, which is a square black box on the left side of the #1 throttle body, is the problem. Or it could be the flow meter is going south, and only by flowing a lot more air into the intake by opening the throttle gets the flow meter to tell the injector computer to supply fuel.

Because as was pointed out, the fact that all 4 cylinders will die unless I keep the throttle open enough to get 3000rpms, means that whatever the problem is, it looks like it's affecting not a couple cyclinders but all four. As if something was causing all 4 fuel injectors to shut down unless there is a lot of air flowing in/throttle bodies open enough to reach 3000rpm.

Between your 2 threads you have alot of advise. The temp sensor at the engine is easy to check, remember to check it both cold and hot. Then back to the Air Flow Meter, there is an Air Temp Sensor as well as a variable resistor grid. All of this can be tested for correct values. One of the fellows suggested to see if anyone had pulled the black plastic cover off, or if the resistance is off you can pull the cover and see if the contacts are dirty/ copper dragged across where a gap should be, etc.
Did you check the power and ground at the Control Unit for the Injection as well as clean those contacts?
Remember if it isn't shown in your manual, search for Bosch L-Jetronic on Google. Even the old VW's had this, many other Nissan, Toyota, Audi, Benz. All from mid 70's to late 80's.
You'll be an expert on EFI by the time you get that baby purring!

Motor Head wrote:

Between your 2 threads you have alot of advise. The temp sensor at the engine is easy to check, remember to check it both cold and hot. Then back to the Air Flow Meter, there is an Air Temp Sensor as well as a variable resistor grid. All of this can be tested for correct values. One of the fellows suggested to see if anyone had pulled the black plastic cover off, or if the resistance is off you can pull the cover and see if the contacts are dirty/ copper dragged across where a gap should be, etc.
Did you check the power and ground at the Control Unit for the Injection as well as clean those contacts?
Remember if it isn't shown in your manual, search for Bosch L-Jetronic on Google. Even the old VW's had this, many other Nissan, Toyota, Audi, Benz. All from mid 70's to late 80's.
You'll be an expert on EFI by the time you get that baby purring!

Yep, there are a lot of pieces to this puzzle. I have no experience with igniters -- I was really hoping I could stop worrying about the FI and someone would have responded to this thread by saying 'Yep, those symptoms indicate a bad igniter.'

I have learned from loudhvx that while that *might* be true it is not really a strong candidate. I studied the Bosch link and it looks like, owing to my relative poverty, that instead of swapping in new parts I am going to have to troubleshoot the system and identify what the problem part is.

The cool thing is, when the bike runs without the symptoms it is fantastic! It's really cool having that bright light at the end of the tunnel, I just need to dig in and patiently progress through all the different pieces.

You won't know for sure if it is all four cylinders, or 2 cylinders or whatever until you do the timing light test, while the bike is acting up.

Depending on if the spark goes intermittant on just one set of cylinders, or both, or none during the sputterin, will give you a very good place to start. Consistant spark all cyls - fuel/air FI problem.
Spark intermittant all/half cylinders - narrows down to only a few ignition components.

Remember - those plugs/timing light will fire every time regardless if the cylinder fires/ignites. Its all based on an ignition system failure at that point.

...and more than once, I've had bikes with multiple old age problems. Failing coils, bad wiring, causing low voltage, etc.

Wish you best!

Here is another article from the Web, what would we do without the internet, on L-jetronic. Of course it is from a BMW, so again some components are different. But alot of it is spot on. Good for a read and reference. It talks about the correlation between components, and how to test several things. Sorry to load you down with so much HomeWork, :laugh:
www.scribd.com/doc/7229034/jetronic

Oh, also if it gets to running again, perform the well known "Wiggle Test" where you wiggle and pull on the electrical harness and connections. Sometimes an Intermittent can be found this way.
On the Ignitor subject, I would have to agree with Loudvhx, they turn up DOA usually. Or cut out completely when hot, and may return after a cool down, GM HEI was famous for that one.

I don't think anyone has touched on this possibility, but look at this:

Ohm Checking Pickup(Pulsing) Coils

The pickup coils on the Kawasaki’s with the factory supplied electronic ignition can sometimes fail or become intermittent due to heat and vibration.

1.Trace back from where the pick up coils are mounted,(under a right side CD sized cover) locate and disconnect a small 4 pin connector. Using a multi-meter set on OHMS and range of 2K, check between the BLUE and BLACK wires(#1 and #4 sparkplug wires) for between 360-540 OHMS.

2.For #2 and #3 sparkplugs the wire colors will be YELLOW and RED, again 360-540 OHMS.

3.If the pickup coils are suspect of failing due to heat, they can be stressed using a hair dryer without the need of the engine running.

4.A replacement set of pickup coils might be obtained from a dealer who serviced the police Kawasaki’s.

5. If replacement pickup coils are not available, your next choice would be to order a Dyna “S” electronic ignition system from www.z1enterprises.com It replaces the IC igniter with a smaller module located where the mechanical ignition advancer was mounted.

6. Checking with Kawasaki.com website has determined that the Pick up(pulsing) coils are available . The pulsing coil # is 59026-1133 and replaces the older # 1002, 1012 which were used from the MKII motors until the 2005 P24.

7.Check the small 4 pin connector that the pickup coils connect to for corrosion/loose pins too.

MFolks wrote:

I don't think anyone has touched on this possibility, but look at this:

Ohm Checking Pickup(Pulsing) Coils

The pickup coils on the Kawasaki’s with the factory supplied electronic ignition can sometimes fail or become intermittent due to heat and vibration.

1.Trace back from where the pick up coils are mounted,(under a right side CD sized cover) locate and disconnect a small 4 pin connector. Using a multi-meter set on OHMS and range of 2K, check between the BLUE and BLACK wires(#1 and #4 sparkplug wires) for between 360-540 OHMS.

2.For #2 and #3 sparkplugs the wire colors will be YELLOW and RED, again 360-540 OHMS.

3.If the pickup coils are suspect of failing due to heat, they can be stressed using a hair dryer without the need of the engine running.

4.A replacement set of pickup coils might be obtained from a dealer who serviced the police Kawasaki’s.

5. If replacement pickup coils are not available, your next choice would be to order a Dyna “S” electronic ignition system from www.z1enterprises.com It replaces the IC igniter with a smaller module located where the mechanical ignition advancer was mounted.

6. Checking with Kawasaki.com website has determined that the Pick up(pulsing) coils are available . The pulsing coil # is 59026-1133 and replaces the older # 1002, 1012 which were used from the MKII motors until the 2005 P24.

7.Check the small 4 pin connector that the pickup coils connect to for corrosion/loose pins too.

Okay I'm going to do that tomorrow, I'm done tinkering for today. I'm going to check the pickup coils as you have outlined above.

I'm also going to do the 'wiggle' test tomorrow, and also I will remove the ignition and handlebar controls and inspect with eyeballs and mmeter.

Today I noticed the gas line from the petcock to the fuel filter was routed poorly and partly kinked.
Here are photos showing the fuel filter and the angle of the kink (gas tank removed).

KINK IN (poorly routed) GAS HOSE -- THIS PHOTO SHOWS HOW MUCH THE GAS HOSE WAS KINKED when the gas tank was installed:



STOCK GAS FILTER, gas enters at the top:



After I took these photos I re-routed the gas hose.
Because here's what I noticed this morning -- I started the bike with the petcock 'On' and watched the fuel filter above to make sure the fuel pump was pulling gas from the gas tank.

The fuel pump seems okay -- when the bike started that fuel filter saw a HUGE burst of gas, telling me that the fuel pump was drawing fuel correctly.

I noted that the fuel filter was more than 1/2 full.
Bike running fine.
I shut off the petcock.
MOTOR STALLED IN 3 SECONDS.

!Despite the fuel filter still being over 1/2 full of gas!
EDIT: so my theory is the fuel filter can be full, doesn't matter, if the petcock is closed or something's blocking gas from the petcock, the fuel pump starts pulling against that blockage which creates a vacuum in the fuel flow and then, with no flow-through from the tank due to whatever blockage, the pump can no longer pull fuel from the fuel filter even if there's gas in it.

That's why I went looking for any reason for gas to stop flowing, intermittently, to the fuel filter -- and I found the overly-angled gas hose.

I re-routed the hose to 100% eliminate that kink in the photo above.

I'm all happy, I drive it for 25 minutes, she's running great, a couple minor backfires, otherwise fine.

Now, I made it a point to spend 25 minutes in stop-and-go 30mph city traffic, lots of stoplights, BIKE GOT HOT, not much airflow to keep it cool. I made a stop and the bike sat for 10 minutes, all that engine heat drifting upward. Came back to the bike, started right up, "hey it *was* that kinked fuel line hot dog!"

Then I'm at a stop light and the motor went from 1200rpm to DEAD in one second. I turned off the ignition.

I pushed it to the side of the road. Checked the fuel filter, the level was *just* below that black rubber strap. I turn the ignition on and hit the start button and again gas rushes in to the filter, looks like the fuel pump is working. From the time the motor died and I pushed it to the side and restarted it: 30 SECONDS.

It then ran fine all the way home (15 miles.)

S-T-R-A-N-G-E.

I just don't think it's heat. The bike was just sitting there, motionless and died, so I doubt it's a loose wire or connection or a short, today there was no wind, the bike and I were *motionless* and the motor just died. Switch off for 30 seconds, runs fine.

I'll check the pickup coils, then use my timing light to assess spark, and the other stuff, then I've got my FI troubleshooting plan all mapped out and I'll start on that.

This one *may* be a long time in solving because -- the failure mode, when the bike stops running normally, is impossible to predict and I have not been able to reproduce it. I'm thinking about taking some tools, timing light, multimeter, on the road with me this weekend for longish 'heat the bike up' drive and hopefully get it to fail then use my tools etc. to try tracking it down.

Now you're getting somewhere. If you think that it was the fuel when it died, did you still have your petcock to "Run", with the long pick-up tube failing to get gas maybe? I think I would Tee into the fuel line and install a gauge to watch fuel pressure. Also a test light of sorts hooked across the pump wires to find if either gos away when it dies next.
Does it still Idle rough and surge? Hesitate on take off, and the other symptoms you had?

if i were you, i would check fuel pressure. it the only constance in the equation 5psi x pulse width x air flow rate . not uncommon pump motor get tired causing psi to vary.

Motor Head wrote:

Now you're getting somewhere. If you think that it was the fuel when it died, did you still have your petcock to "Run", with the long pick-up tube failing to get gas maybe? I think I would Tee into the fuel line and install a gauge to watch fuel pressure. Also a test light of sorts hooked across the pump wires to find if either gos away when it dies next.
Does it still Idle rough and surge? Hesitate on take off, and the other symptoms you had?

After fixing the kinked fuel hose, I filled it to the top of the gas tank right before I set out today. The petcock was on 'Run' and not 'reserve.'

And when the bike died at the stoplight I immediately hit the start button and it was right back to the 'keep it revved high or it will die', popping-and-backfiring problem and I immediately shut off the ignition, and pushed it to the side of the road. On the side of the road I pulled the left side cover off and turned the bike on to ensure the fuel pump was pulling fuel into the filter and it was, bigtime. Side cover back on, I'm on the road with nary a hiccup for the 15-minute ride home. Total downtime about 30 seconds, not enough time for anything to cool off.

And today the idle was a bit up-and-down sometimes, and sometimes idling with no hiccup whatsoever at a stable 1300 rpm. Not running rough, although I'm still pretty sure the throttle bodies are not in sync.

enaz1 wrote:

if i were you, i would check fuel pressure. it the only constance in the equation 5psi x pulse width x air flow rate . not uncommon pump motor get tired causing psi to vary.

Checking the fuel pressure is in my map of things to do when I start testing the FI system. I'm going to check that one first because it's pretty easy. Some of the steps, such as checking one of the relays, is involved, requiring a 12v power source, "a 3.2 watt light bulb" and sheesh. It's a long list of things to do.

EDIT: want carbs...NOW!

Ok as we discussed before, the fuel pump and relay, pressure test should be conducted. Now I believe that the pump relay will be energized by the EFI Controller, but it needs to see Ignition signal, like a Tack to do this. This means when the engine stalls the pump will shut down even with the key on. So if the relay is failing, very likely, or if there is a bad connection between ignition and EFI controller, Controller to relay. Did you get a manual with the correct wiring diagram? If so you should see which wire will latch the relay.
I believe the main fuse as well as others could be a problem as well, didn't you check contact and voltages in the fuse panel? Did you replace those OLD AGX fuses? They may look OK but often they disconnect right at the cap when hot. Hooking some sort of test light onto the system, where you want to check for voltage as it intermittently fails might help you.
You can get a small pack of 12v LED lights at Radio Shack, build a small board to attach up on the bars with some wiring going to the circuits, label the different color lights, then when it quits or stumbles bad you might get a good indication of loss of voltage.
Much easier on newer stuff, they spit out codes! The old stuff takes old methods!
Try this at Radio Shack:
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?pro...=2062588#tabsetBasic