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TOPIC: Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution

Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 05:46 #803853

  • goatfarming
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so if you search my name i have made a more detailed post about this, but basically i cannot for the life of me get my bike to run properly after head gasket change, and i have tried to refit the cam and chain with following kz400 guide, and a manual but it does not seem to fit my exact bike.

So my frame number is : kz400h-024609 and engine number: is K 4 E

So i have tried different ways in the manual i have it says lign up top dead center, then rotate 1/4 turn and then sprocket arrow pointing forwards level refit the chain on the flange, cam notch pointing up, re-align the wholes by rotating the crank.

Tried that didn't work.

Another member on here said to :

Step 1] reassemble the cam chain tensioner but do not install it yet.
Step 2] reinstall camshaft sprocket, it goes on only one way.
Step 3] rotate crank to line up with the 'T' timing mark.
Step 4] With the cam chain tensioner removed from the engine. The cam can be rotated
because there it enough slack for the chain to slip over allowing the cam to rotate. Rotate
the cam till the arrow is pointing to the front.
Step 5] Install chain on the cam sprocket. Make sure the chain has also engaged the crank
sprocket also. The chain has to be tight on the rear of the engine and loose on the front.
Step 6] With the crank timing marks lined up and the cam sprocket arrow pointing forward just
with the chain tight install the cam chain tensioner.
rotate engine two revolutions and line up the crank 'T' mark and the cam sprocket mark should
be pointing straight to the front of the engine.


I tried that but no go.

KZ400.com has a slight variation for it that says :

To fit the camshaft I've removed its sprocket, then hooked it into the cam chain. The camshaft drops into its freshly oiled bearings and I can feed the chain around the sprocket teeth. The trick is then to time the top sprocket to the crankshaft, which again needs to be positioned at the "T" mark for top dead centre. There's enough slack in the chain to feed the links over until the timing marks are correct.

With the cam sprocket sitting on its mounting flange the timing mark, here picked out with silver paint, should align with the head flange. It's then a simple matter to rotate the camshaft until the sprocket bolt holes line up and then fit the two retaining screws, again using a spot of threadlock. And if you were worrying about getting the timing 180 degrees out, forget it. The Z400's wasted spark ignition system means both cylinders fire together, on both compression and exhaust strokes.



So if i understand this correctly both from the member that suggested it above and the kz400 i'm not gonna pay attention to the notch in the cam shaft facing up, or i can use that as a starting position and then instead of rotating the crank i will rotate the camshaft once i have refitted the chain to the sprocket and sprocket arrow lies parallel to the engine block pointing forwards and then simply rotating the camshaft itself forwards until the holes line up in the flange and secure it in place, the thing is i have already done this, the camshaft needs to be rotated forwards if your starting point is it facing right up - the notch in the right end side of the camshaft itself ?

The only possible thing i can see that i have done wrong is something in this step.

Because right now i have used the other method outlined in the manual stating to keep the camshaft notch up and rotate the crank to have the holes for the sprocket in the flange line up, instead of keeping it steady and instead rotating the cam itself - is that the problem ? im pretty damn sure i have done this too like twice and got problems with it running as well.

For anyone that can point out what i'm missing and explain it so that i can get it back together i will paypal them 100$

The only reason that you align the engine up to top dead centre is because the cam shaft is supposed to be a certain way opening and closing valves etc. and if you don't pay attention to the notch in the camshaft or use it as some sort of starting point - the whole timing process seems rather useless to me ? you wouldn't know the position, maybe i'm just overthinking it

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Last edit: by goatfarming.

Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 08:59 #803861

  • loudhvx
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Sorry you're still having cam timing issues.

According to U.S. Kawasaki, I think your bike is a 1982 Kz400H1.
At least that is what I'm using to access the parts fiches. The drop down list doesn't show your bike, but I changed the link from 1000-K2 for Ltd. to 400-H1 and it came up.

Link to parts fiche.
www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagrams/1982/KZ400-H1

EDIT: Screwed by the parts fiche again...
The above is likely wrong since the link below indicates the Kz400H1 is a 1979 model.
www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagrams/1979/KZ400-H1

Also, when looking up 1979 models, the Kz400H1 is one of the options.
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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 09:30 #803862

  • Nessism
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This illistration is from the 440 manual but I think it should be same for the 400 (someone correct me if this is wrong). Anyway, this is the end game. 1-4 T aligned on the crank and the arrow on the cam sprocket pointing at the gasket surface.

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 10:48 #803865

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His motor is in a strange position. Because it is such a late 400 motor you might think it uses the 440 valve train, but the part numbers show a roller chain.

The 440 used a Hyvo chain.

The sprockets etc. would all be different.

He may in fact need to use the older 400 cam timing system, which if you read the 400 manual is more complicated than the inline-fours. The procedure is more complicated, that is, not the actual timing.

The sprocket has two arrows, one for installation purposes and the other is for actual timing. The manual for the 400 I have only covers up to 1977... that's the one with the complicated procedure.

I also have the 440 manual you posted that image from.

What I don't have is the actual manual that covers a 1982 Kz400H1 engine, so it's hard to say what the exact procedure should be. If the parts are identical to a 1977 Kz400, then I would use the earlier 1977 procedure. If they are different, then I don't know what to use. The parts he has are going to be different from the 440, so I don't know he can use the 440 manual.

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Last edit: by loudhvx.

Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 14:15 #803874

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It looks like the notch position of the cam is different @ TDC in different manuals.
You have to use the procedere for your notch Position.






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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 14:53 #803877

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Looking at the older 400 manual and the 440 manual, both have the notch upward at TDC. The older 400 manual has you locate the cams to where the notch is 90 degrees CCW of TDC for installation purposes, but the final timing, as I understand it, is notch up at TDC. Both motors use the same procedure in order to install the sprocket onto the camshaft, but the older motor has a non-marked arrow for sprocket installation whereas the newer motors apparently do not have the arrow.

However both should have an arrow with a T mark, and that lines up with the valve cover deck when the advancer is at its T mark.
That should result in the final timing the same on all motors... T-arrow on the valve cover deck, with notch up, with T mark on the advancer lined up, and pistons both at TDC.

Refer to step 6 page 772 of the posted images.

The notch is just something to confirm with a quick glance, but the real timing consists of the arrows on the sprocket.

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Last edit: by loudhvx.

Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 15:23 #803879

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I am talking about of two diffrent fabricated cam high/lift center to notch positions.


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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 15:39 #803882

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I think I see what you're saying now, the 440 motor notch is not up at TDC it is somewhere around 9 o'clock... is that what you're saying?

So we need a photo of goatfarming's camshaft to confirm the cam lobes are at around 10 and 2 when the notch is straight up or at 9 o'clock, and the sprocket T arrow is lined up with the deck and the T mark is lined up on the timing advancer pointer.

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Last edit: by loudhvx.

Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 15:58 #803883

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In goatfarming┬┤s video the cam notch is @9 o┬┤clock Position (TDC)

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 16:57 #803884

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Not only that, but the chain is a Hyvo chain (I can see it in the still photo, but I can't watch the video at work).

This leads me to believe he may have some hybrid 400/440 motor?
The 9'0clock notch and hyvo chain, I thought, were 440 attributes.

I'll try to go back to the fiches. BTW, the fiches don't show a notch in the camshaft drawing.

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Last edit: by loudhvx.

Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 17:23 #803886

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His engine looks like a bit special but I can not imagine why he (we) could not cam timing this simple twin engine.

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 17:48 #803889

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Alright well, now I'm even more confused. Doing more searching on the Kawasaki site makes it seem like the Kz400H1 model is actually a 1979 model.
When you look up 1979 models, the Kz400H1 is in the drop down list.
And also this link gives you the parts for a 1979 Kz400H1.
www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagrams/1979/KZ400-H1

The 400H1 shares valve train parts with the 1979 Kz400B2.
12046-1002 sprocket 34T
21070-004 roller chain
12044-5001 camshaft

Even the earliest Kz440, 1980 A1 and B1 show a hyvo chain system.
12046-1022 sprocket 46T
92057-1038 hyvo chain
12044-5001 camshaft

Notice however, they use the same camshaft, so that makes things even more interesting.

The earlier Kz400's use camshaft 12044-009.

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Last edit: by loudhvx.

Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 18:44 #803893

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Looks like I'm going to have to take some pics tomorrow to straighten you folks out.
The OP has already posted a video of it running. It is in some sort of bobber. So who know
which engine it is. It is post 1980 with a hyvo chain. Some countries received a KZ400 after
1980. I have never seen a hybrid engine and I doubt I ever will. The early KZ400 has the
head studs in a different position than the late KZ400 and KZ440. The late KZ400 [ 1978'79 ]
is just like a KZ440 except for the cam chain pre 1980 KZ400 is roller, has a kick starter and
smaller bore.


.
2002 ZRX1200R
81 GPz1100
79 KZ1000st daily ride
79 KZ1000mk2 prodject
78 KZ650sr
78 KZ650b
81 KZ750e
80 KZ750ltd
77 KZ400/440 cafe project
76 KZ400/440 Fuel Injected

www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=39120.0


.

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 14 May 2019 18:52 #803894

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So is the OP in the U.S.?
And do the post 1980 Kz400's have a hyvo chain?

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 15 May 2019 07:05 #803904

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First off all, thanks for everyone that has answered and offered a helping hand i really appreciate it.

The bike was originally from Sweden, i dont know where he got the bike from if it was imported or not, but the frame number and everything is original, i have just cut the frame a bit and stripped the original parts and changed them, it was completely original and still is engine etc frame number / serial number everything checks out

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 15 May 2019 07:17 #803907

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i have just made some adjustments to the frame, it was totally original before. i've built it into a bobber, but it is the same frame etc i have have just made some adjustment around the seat, changed tank, handlebar , electronic box etc

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 15 May 2019 07:20 #803908

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loudhvx wrote: So is the OP in the U.S.?
And do the post 1980 Kz400's have a hyvo chain?


Im in Norway, but like i mentioned i picked the bike up in sweden, it was totally original as far as i know and could tell from pictures, but when you register it back and forth the year can be hard to pinpoint so i can be that it is in fact a 1979 model like you say, and that the pink slip just says 1982 because it was first registered then, i will take some pictures today

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 15 May 2019 07:23 #803909

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Nessism wrote: This illistration is from the 440 manual but I think it should be same for the 400 (someone correct me if this is wrong). Anyway, this is the end game. 1-4 T aligned on the crank and the arrow on the cam sprocket pointing at the gasket surface.



This is how it looks now that i have put it back together again, but i looked that way before too, because the sprocket only really fits one place in the cam when the bolt holes align they only really fit one way , you cant mount it 180 degrees the other way around, so this is really the only position. i will go out and take the head of again and take some pictures.

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 15 May 2019 08:09 #803914

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So i undid the top cover again to take some pictures for you guys and also made another youtube video just for added info and overview, once again i REALLY appreciate the info and discussion this thread has got going here, and for the first time in weeks a feel hopeful that a solution is around the corner.

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Kz400 H82 Cam / Timing refitting. 100$ reward paid for solution 15 May 2019 14:22 #803929

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goatfarming wrote:

Nessism wrote: This illistration is from the 440 manual but I think it should be same for the 400 (someone correct me if this is wrong). Anyway, this is the end game. 1-4 T aligned on the crank and the arrow on the cam sprocket pointing at the gasket surface.



This is how it looks now that i have put it back together again, but i looked that way before too, because the sprocket only really fits one place in the cam when the bolt holes align they only really fit one way , you cant mount it 180 degrees the other way around, so this is really the only position. i will go out and take the head of again and take some pictures.


I have turned my head and gone a couple rounds again, the only thing i can think of is that on the picture the arrow on the sprocket looks to be 1 teeth down towards the front and not exactly level with the head, i guess this is also a matter of perspective because the whole engine looks a bit tilted, but if you go by the cam notch being exactly 9 O clock then the arrow will face slightly down, this is the only thing i can think of since it runs it just sort of back fires through the left carb a little bit or runs a bit off timing . what do you all think ?

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