Doing cam timing

Response was that my readings are off because I'm not using zero lash, but I am. Tightest possible shims without holding valve open. Can't get a .0015" blade in but shim still spins.

With my readings I have a duration of 245.5 and it's supposed to be 252. So I guess I should shoot for 108.5 lobe center with what I have?

VTEC wrote: . So I guess I should shoot for 108.5 lobe center with what I have?

Yes! use the lobe centre method.
That is more important than confirming the duration figures and will put the cam timing where it should be regardless of what duration figures you are getting.
You won't get the full 252 degree duration reading without running zero or minus lash with the cam riding on the shim at all times and even then it may be hard to accurately see because the lift coming off the base circle is proportionally minute per degree compared to when it is up on the cam and the small amount of lash you have is using up the degrees you are missing.
This is why readings are taken at a certain amount of lift so that the actual amount of lift per degree can be read consistently.

Hey Zed. Really appreciate all your help. So much into this engine and I want to finish it off right.

So I'll go lobe center from the cam card. 107.5 intake/108.5 exhaust. Using my open and close readings at .050" (different duration than the card specs due to imperfect zero lash).

My calculations give me about .0011" intake and .0008 exhaust valve clearance getting as close as possible to zero using shims divisible by .05mm. And I guess this is enough to throw off my readings from the card by the amount I'm coming up with.

So using lobe center what's the best way to go. My close to zero clearance, or running spec of .006"? Guess it depends on who came up with the numbers. Applying to true zero lash, or a real-world running senario. Some folks say you need zero lash, others say it doesn't matter. I guess depending on how accurate you want to be.

If you use 0.050 as open and closing points then lobe center is half way between the two. There is no lash the valve is open 0.050.. Zero lash is only good for comparing actual cam duration to cam spec cards

VTEC wrote: Hey Zed. Really appreciate all your help. So much into this engine and I want to finish it off right.

So I'll go lobe center from the cam card. 107.5 intake/108.5 exhaust. Using my open and close readings at .050" (different duration than the card specs due to imperfect zero lash).

So using lobe center what's the best way to go. My close to zero clearance, or running spec of .006"? Guess it depends on who came up with the numbers. Applying to true zero lash, or a real-world running senario. Some folks say you need zero lash, others say it doesn't matter. I guess depending on how accurate you want to be.

Use whatever clearance you want, It won't change the lobe centre calcs as the slightly less degree count will be equal on either side although the larger the figures will give fractional more accuracy but not that you could measure given possible slight movement in the cam train , minute inaccuracies in the degree wheel markings and the human eye.
Same sort of goes for the checking lift as long as it's enough to get off the base circle and ramp ( most specify around .0040 lift because that is usually enough to get on the cam on most grinds and why specify .0060 or .0080 when .0040 is enough )
As long as you have correct TDC on the pointer, the degree disc is securely fixed and the dial indicator follows the valve accurately you can't really go wrong.

OK. So valve lash doesn't matter when going by lobe center. I'm trying to be as accurate as possible. Making it a point when taking readings on the degree wheel, when lift is at .050", that I hold pressure in the direction of rotation. The crank backs up a degree or two when pressure is taken off the wrench.

VTEC wrote: OK. So valve lash doesn't matter when going by lobe center. I'm trying to be as accurate as possible. Making it a point when taking readings on the degree wheel, when lift is at .050", that I hold pressure in the direction of rotation. The crank backs up a degree or two when pressure is taken off the wrench.

Valve lash doesn't matter. you can even fit a thick shim so there is minus clearance with the valve slightly open at all times which should give you close to the full duration figures on the card.
The figure they give at .0050" is the checking lift as it's nearly impossible to accurately measure the duration exactly because of the minute movement per degree when coming off the base circle and onto the ramp.
Just do as you describe and rotate the crank while keep slight pressure. Take the open and close degree readings at the chosen lift figure and do the calcs.
If the lobe figure is off then move the cam slightly on the sprocket in the direction it needs to go and repeat.
It will help to put a scribe mark on the sprocket and cam flange as reference when moving the cam so you can see how little movment translates to crank degrees and will also give a known point to go back to if all goes tits up and you move the cam the wrong way by mistake.

Back at work. Another week off around memorial day. I'll take all your help and apply it to get timing right. Double and triple check, of course.

Anybody need help with Honda car problems? Please let me know.

A little off topic, but the two steps before timing I installed the cylinder head.

Went with the 1100 OEM gaskets to accommodate the 72mm bore. A little tricky lining them up with the cylinders since the inboard cut-outs don't fit the oversized cylinder studs. But I think it was the best way to go for two reasons. One is I will never believe the Cometic one-piece gaskets have the same oil sealing properties of the OEM o-rings. Two is they gave me the best squish numbers.

Took only about .006" off the block deck which will squish the o-rings a tiny bit more than stock. Hopefully that's a good thing.

Discussed in another post about enlarging block and head stud holes to equal OEM top-end oil flow with the restriction of the oversized cylinder studs. Decided not to drill out the head since everybody seems to agree that the loss of oil flow is mute. But I did drill out the outer block holes with a 12mm bit as suggested by Zed. A little is better than nothing.

Anyway, I finished off with a suggestion from a buddy who serviced the P bikes, and installed the outer o-ring springs.

Check out #11: www.partzilla.com/catalog/kawasaki/motor...0-p1/cylinder-piston

For some reason I think they were only used on the P bikes, possibly with the thought of the need for higher durability. They fit into the outer stud holes in the block (which are larger than the holes in the head). My buddy said the reason was to limit the squish of the o-rings into the oil passage which would decrease top-end oil flow. Made sense to me, especially with oversized studs, so I put them in.

Did you check your cam chain when you installed it? Could it be stretched? There is a procedure for measuring it in the KZ1000 manual. Hang if with a weight and measure 20 links. Then compare to the spec.

The reason I mention it is because a stretched chain will increase the distance between the timing mark and the end of the 28th link.

Edited to add that with the bearing caps tightened down I would expect to see a little slack between the cam sprockets, yet your photo shows none.

hardrockminer wrote: Did you check your cam chain when you installed it? Could it be stretched? There is a procedure for measuring it in the KZ1000 manual. Hang if with a weight and measure 20 links. Then compare to the spec.

The reason I mention it is because a stretched chain will increase the distance between the timing mark and the end of the 28th link.

Edited to add that with the bearing caps tightened down I would expect to see a little slack between the cam sprockets, yet your photo shows none.

It's a brand new Kawasaki chain. It's tight between the sprockets in the pic because I just rotated. it for the first time. Mock cover and top guide are now installed for timing.

Did you check the chain to see if it was in spec?

The important point is to get the exhaust cam set on the correct tooth according to the mark, and to then set the intake cam on the 28 mark. As I rough guide I would note that when properly installed the #4 lobe on exhaust and intake cams will point towards each other.

When you set the cams in you should have noticed a little more slack than normal because you shaved the head.

After I set the cams , I put the top guide in (without loctite) and install the tensioner on the back before rotating. Once rotated I will remove the top guide bolts one at a time and loctite.

Use the kicker to rotate. but don't push any harder than you need to in order to get the crank to rotate If you use the nut on the points side you risk breaking the timing pin installed in the end of the crank. Don't ask how I know.