If You Think You Don't Need ZDDP In the Oil

Pretty interesting information here:

www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm

I wonder how many people realize this: back in the 60's when I started driving, every time the API brought out a "new" service rating for motor oil, you automatically looked for oil that had the highest rating. In other words, SE-CC was the best for a while, then SF-CC was better, then SG rating was better, etc. The highest rating was better for any internal combustion engine application, just use the newest rating to get the best oil.

Only in recent years has that changed: ZDDP was phased out by order of the EPA, and oil companies just tap danced and hoped nobody would notice. The newest rating, which I believe is "SN", has basically no ZDDP at all and is NOT suitable for any engine with flat tappets (see article link above to see why) and that applies to all vintage bikes.

The real problem is oil makers don't put ZDDP content on the label.... or anything else on the label. Virtually any recently manufactured car oil will have little or no ZDDP. The "diesel rated" oils for trucking used to have it, I have no idea if they still do. Some "racing" oils have it since they are for off road only. Motorcycle specific oil for street use? I don't know. Bottom line, if you are not sure, buy some and add it. There are plenty of places to get it. You can even get a good dose of ZDDP by adding STP Oil treatment but that will also bump your oil viscosity about 5 points which is no big deal.

Beware.


Another interesting article:

www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/98566/z...re_what_why_how.aspx

Slow news day? :laugh:

This reinforces what an automobile racing-engine specialist told me last week, when recommending an oil (other than synthetic) for my bike now-forward.
He mentioned problems with oils as well, and also discouraged using Mobil 1 due to engine issues he's been seeing first-hand.

I'm confident in his suggestion to run Brad Penn Grade 1 10w40, which I put in my engine last week.
As I understand, this oil is only available through a dealer distribution network, and not over the counter, but then again...there's ebay!

daveo wrote: This reinforces what an automobile racing-engine specialist told me last week, when recommending an oil (other than synthetic) for my bike now-forward.
He mentioned problems with oils as well, and also discouraged using Mobil 1 due to engine issues he's been seeing first-hand.

I'm confident in his suggestion to run Brad Penn 10w40, which I put in my engine last week.
As I understand, this oil is only available through a dealer distribution network, and not over the counter.

What issues has your automotive racing engine specialist seen that he blames on Mobil 1?
Ive had first hand experiance with mobil 1 oil since late 70s,Ive seen motors with several hundred thousand miles on them that have run mobil 1 since break in that look brand new inside.
I even broke down and swapped intake gaskets on my wifes old 98 windstar with a 3.8 v6 a while back with 200,000 plus on it and it looked brand new inside.
A little history on that particular v6:A few years back I was on my way back to omaha from topeka when I sprung a leak in a steel coolant line which emptied the radiator causing it to bury the temp gauge.
I stopped at every gas station on the highway I could hit sometimes running 30-40 miles with no water and the temp gauge buried!
Made it all the way back to omaha expecting it to cut loose anytime,never touched the motor other than brazing the hole up in line untill now 5 years later!
when I did the intake gaskets I did the leaking valve cover gaskets at same time,looked brand new inside there.
I give all the credit to the mobil 1 ive run since that thing had 20,000 miles on it,ive got no doubt any dino bone oil would have burned itself into sludge under same conditions.
As far as hot rod engines Ive built enough high strung small block and big block chevys for cars/trucks/dump trucks/mud draggers/drag boats.not to mention street bikes /dragbikes to know a little bit about reliability and what works and what dont.
So by all means have mr goodwrench post his issues on here

daveo wrote: I'm confident in his suggestion to run Brad Penn Grade 1 10w40, which I put in my engine last week. As I understand, this oil is only available through a dealer distribution network, and not over the counter, but then again...there's ebay!

That is true...I buy it by the case from a distributor about 20 miles away. Their website had a list of distributors.

Thanks wireman,
I'll attempt to get specific with him yet this week, but doubt he'd be personally interested in taking up the issue here.
I'm no expert, and won't pretend to be one either. I just like to ride on a smooth, dependable engine.

I agree 100% that KZ engines benefit from oil containing ZDDP. However, consumers adding ZDDP to oil may add too much or too little depending on who is doing the measuring and pouring, what product they are adding, and what, if any, percentage of ZDDP they are trying to achieve.

I rely on oil containing an amount of ZDDP that has been formulated specifically for 4 cycle wet clutch motorcycle engines by experts in that science.

Take a look at the link below; it is the Product Guide for Mobil 1 fully synthetic oils, and it shows the ZDDP content (see Zinc and Phosphorus columns) for each of the Mobil 1 products as of 10/17/2011.

When you retrieve the link, do a search for “4T”. You will notice that Mobil 1 Racing 4T oil meets the JASO-MA standard for 4 cycle motorcycles with wet clutches and contains a high zinc / phosphorus content that is good for our cams. This is the primary reason, plus availability, that I have been using it for the past 5 years; and it works. Ed

www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Fi..._1_Product_Guide.pdf

daveo wrote: This reinforces what an automobile racing-engine specialist told me last week, when recommending an oil (other than synthetic) for my bike now-forward.
He mentioned problems with oils as well, and also discouraged using Mobil 1 due to engine issues he's been seeing first-hand.

I'm confident in his suggestion to run Brad Penn Grade 1 10w40, which I put in my engine last week.
As I understand, this oil is only available through a dealer distribution network, and not over the counter, but then again...there's ebay!

For any given oil out there, I can point you to a situation where someone has had a bad experience using it. That includes Brad Penn, Mobil 1 & Motul.

I've seen cam failures that were due to the aftermarket buckets. Proper spring rates, clearances, oil and break in procedures were used but the engine ate 2 sets of cams and buckets. Finally, after switching to a different make of bucket, the situation was cured. You couldn't give me a set of MTC buckets

Any automotive speed shop will carry a variety of good oil with ZDDP in it.

Valve train components fail in flat tappet engines. It's just a fact of life. Whenever I build a motor using performance cams and shim under buckets, I always worry about the cams. You never know what's going to happen even when your cover all the bases.

I have had good success with APE and Kibble White PM valve buckets. OEM Kawasaki's are shit against a performance cam and springs on the street. My position on MTC has already been stated. While I'm on the subject though, Megacycle is IMO, the best ground cam available for these old bikes. Their lobe finish is the best out there....

I've had a lot of Ebay cams in my hands over the past 6 years that belong to customers. A lot of the Andrews cams have had bad lobes. I've never seen a failing Megacycle lobe. Web is a crap shoot where Q/C is concerned and if you have one fail, I GUARANTEE they will blame it on coil bind, regardless of the situation

Honestly did not know I needed to be concerned. Thanks.

I'm a fan of Rotella, I suppose the next step is to see if I can find out what is (or isn't) in it.

650ed wrote: I rely on oil containing an amount of ZDDP that has been formulated specifically for 4 cycle wet clutch motorcycle engines by experts in that science.

My point is, I am not sure I believe what oil makers say on the subject. They have zero credibility. They quietly made a significant product change that would seriously damage many cars/bike's engines without any customer notice.

To this day, they do not even do the minimum, which would be to apply a usage label like "Intended for cars made between 2002 and 2008" on the label based on service grade (SM, SN etc). They did that for a specific reason: they don't want to "limit" their market. They don't care if your engine gets ruined.

The other problem is that oils made to a specific service grade have a maximum limit on ZDDP for that grade, but there's no minimum so you might get SM oil with 800 ppm or 100 ppm and it's not labeled. You have no way of knowing. And as for what the oil makers say?

Take a look at the link below; it is the Product Guide for Mobil 1 fully synthetic oils, and it shows the ZDDP content (see Zinc and Phosphorus columns) for each of the Mobil 1 products as of 10/17/2011.

Their products are subject to change without notice. Three months from now could be totally different.

As for putting in too much ZDDP? The "target" is about 1500 - 2000 ppm. Going above about 2500 ppm is not desirable so here's what I do: just use SM which will have less than 800 ppm and add enough ZDDP to bump it another 1500.

If you get oil from a source that you trust which already has enough ZDDP, no worries. But as stated above, you probably have to order it or buy it from a dealer so it will be pricey.

LarryC wrote: I've seen cam failures that were due to the aftermarket buckets.

On the issue of cam lobes: low ZDDP can and does cause catastrophic cam failures, often within the first 100 miles. The number of reports on the net for this is staggering.

But what most people don't realize: ZDDP is a wear inhibitor that works on all engine surfaces especially bearings. It reduces wear any time lubrication is not optimum, such as during engine startup and when the oil is cold. So even if you have "roller cams", and you can't "wipe a lobe" like our engines can, you still get increased wear over time from the loss of the protection of ZDDP.

New car makers aren't talking about it, they don't really want the life of your engine to be 150,000 miles anyway. Basically, the decision to remove zddp increases the life of the cat converter at the expense of engine life. Dumb trade.

The more I researched this problem, the more it isn't a problem. Bob is the oil guy forums have all kinds of oil analysis from virgin samples of most oils showing the zinc level which is generally 1000-1500ppm on modern oil. All types of vehicals from old 60s or earlier cars, new cars/trucks, new and old motorcycles. Everything is there in one place or another and I have yet to see an analysis where less zddp in SM oil hurt anyones engine. Actually 2 of my motorcycle analysis are kind of interesting. 1990 Castrol GTX 10W40 was oil back in the SG or so time frame. It had 1149ppm of zddp in my old KZ1000 analysis. Brand new Rotella T5 10W30 in SM rating used in the goldwing had 1319ppm so this new terrible oil in SM actually had more zddp than 20yr old Castrol that was always regarded as decent oil. Nobody back in 1990 started a new engine and wore the cams down in 100 miles except the Honda V4s and that wasn't the oil. :laugh: Not the oil now either most likely.