The best OIL to use!

Yeah, I haven't gone synthetic yet, but it may be worth a try. My one buddy went synthetic and developed some tiny seepages, but it's hard to know for sure what the cause-effect relationship is. I'm not sure if he went back to dino-oil or not.

loudhvx wrote:

I'm bumpstart only, so I guess I'll have to push it... no kicker, no starter, no battery, or rotate the wheel on centerstand. But no power for the oil light anyway.

But there is still compression (unless plugs removed) pushing the bearings to metal-on-metal contact until there is oil in the bearing. With a cold oil change, it starts out with more oil in there, regardless of the cranking method.

It's possible that it's a non-issue anyway, since like Ron, I think most wear is during higher speed running, (based on a few observations, but not any real investigation).

I would be a lot of trouble just for restarts after an oil chainge, but u could rewire. It is a common practice for big blocks to rewire the handle bar contols. They turn the bike over with the start button,without it fireing. then they switch it to run to actualy fire it.
this makes it easier on the starter clutches.

Yeah for tuning and testing I throw the starter back in and use an outboard car-battery to crank it.

RonKZ650 wrote:

They always say most wear happens at startup, but I'll have to wonder about that.

That old saying was probably once very true, now not so much. Before there were good multi-grade oils, the engine was very poorly lubricated until the oil warmed up. Also, the new additives increase the film hold so the oil hangs in and doesn't drain down as bad as old design oil. The problem with start up wear is that cold steel-on-steel interaction shears (wears) a lot worse than when hot steel rubs together. I remember a chart of cylinder wall wear versus operating temp and it looks like an exponential decay: cold metal wears a lot faster than hot because it is less ductile, so there is some truth always about 'start up wear".

Of course, as you say, high RPM cruising is also hard on an engine and may wear out the engine faster than conservative city driving.

mark1122 wrote:

there is no way for us to look at our motor parts and tell if there is added were due to an oil choice.
.

There is: pros who run fleets of trucks have the oil regularly analyzed to detect how the oil is degrading and to look for metal particles that are from metal wear. That's why oils like Rotella got a good rep because if truckers use them it means they hang in there for long service intervals.

loudhvx wrote:

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but regarding wear on startup: I think the startup after an oil change can potentially do some damage. Has anyone else noticed that the oil pressure light stays on 5 to 10 times longer after the initial start after an oil change? Obviously it's because the filter needs to get filled along with the other areas that were drained.

This goes against most convention, but I do not drain the oil while hot. You are never going to get all of the old oil out, and draining it hot means the bearings won't retain much oil. I first start the bike for about 5 to 10 seconds while cold then shut if off. Then change the oil cold. That way, there is thick, cold oil still clinging in the bearing areas. You don't get every drop out, but you also don't start the motor with no oil. The only drawback is you have to wait a little longer for the oil to drain. The important thing is to retain oil in the bearings and paths.

On KZ's the oil pressure light goes out quickly so it's harder to notice the difference, but I've noticed on cars where the oil light stays on for a noticeable time, the oil pressure light goes out much quicker on the initial start if I change the oil cold versus hot. Like between 1 second versus 10 to 15 seconds.

any thoughts?

Another way: just change the oil and pull the spark plugs. before you restart it, use the kick starter to kick it over for about 30 seconds. Then put the plugs in and fire it.

As for the oil light staying on: I think that means you have lower end bearing wear or pump wear. Even when I intentionally drain the engine dry and change the filter, that light goes off in no more than a couple of seconds max.

Sometimes if I am really wanting to get the dirty oil out, I pull the drain plg and after it drains, I use the kick starter to blow the internal oil out. Afterwards, I reprime it the same way with clean oil.

loudhvx wrote:

I'm bumpstart only, so I guess I'll have to push it... no kicker, no starter, no battery, or rotate the wheel on centerstand. But no power for the oil light anyway.

But there is still compression (unless plugs removed) pushing the bearings to metal-on-metal contact until there is oil in the bearing. With a cold oil change, it starts out with more oil in there, regardless of the cranking method.

It's possible that it's a non-issue anyway, since like Ron, I think most wear is during higher speed running, (based on a few observations, but not any real investigation).

The real problem with changing oil cold is that all the sediment will be sitting in the bottom of the pan and it won't drain. Running it hot actaully mixes a lot of it into the oil so it will drain out. That sludge layer really builds up after a while.

bountyhunter wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

I'm bumpstart only, so I guess I'll have to push it... no kicker, no starter, no battery, or rotate the wheel on centerstand. But no power for the oil light anyway.

But there is still compression (unless plugs removed) pushing the bearings to metal-on-metal contact until there is oil in the bearing. With a cold oil change, it starts out with more oil in there, regardless of the cranking method.

It's possible that it's a non-issue anyway, since like Ron, I think most wear is during higher speed running, (based on a few observations, but not any real investigation).

The real problem with changing oil cold is that all the sediment will be sitting in the bottom of the pan and it won't drain. Running it hot actaully mixes a lot of it into the oil so it will drain out. That sludge layer really builds up after a while.

Been doing it that way for years. Never found any significant sludge to speak of when looking in the pan. The new filter must get it the very next time the oil is heated.

bountyhunter wrote:

Another way: just change the oil and pull the spark plugs. before you restart it, use the kick starter to kick it over for about 30 seconds. Then put the plugs in and fire it.

As mentioned, pulling the plugs would work, but no kicker on the bike. Would have to turn the rear wheel. Too much pain for an oil change. Easier to just do it cold.

bountyhunter wrote:

As for the oil light staying on: I think that means you have lower end bearing wear or pump wear. Even when I intentionally drain the engine dry and change the filter, that light goes off in no more than a couple of seconds max.

If it was pump wear or bearing wear it would do it anytime the car was hot and sat for 10 or 20 minutes. As I said it was not on the bike. One was a Dodge 318 with 300K miles. The light only stayed on after a hot oil change. Never an issue any other time. Cold oil changes for 150K miles and the oil pan and internals were clean at 300K miles.
Same goes for my Nissan at 200K miles.

bountyhunter wrote:

mark1122 wrote:

there is no way for us to look at our motor parts and tell if there is added were due to an oil choice.
.

There is: pros who run fleets of trucks have the oil regularly analyzed to detect how the oil is degrading and to look for metal particles that are from metal wear. That's why oils like Rotella got a good rep because if truckers use them it means they hang in there for long service intervals.

You are right, but what i meant was US, not the labs.
WE as in you and I have no way to tell . So when
guys say they dont notice any ware, when they used x oil ,how can they realy know. You know what i mean.

mark1122 wrote:

bountyhunter wrote:

mark1122 wrote:

there is no way for us to look at our motor parts and tell if there is added were due to an oil choice.
.

There is: pros who run fleets of trucks have the oil regularly analyzed to detect how the oil is degrading and to look for metal particles that are from metal wear. That's why oils like Rotella got a good rep because if truckers use them it means they hang in there for long service intervals.

You are right, but what i meant was US, not the labs.
WE as in you and I have no way to tell . So went guys say they dont notice any ware, when they used x oil ,how can they real know. You know what i mean.

There are some posters I have read who are having their oils run at local labs for viscosity and content. I saw it on the other kawasaki forum. If you really want to do it, the services are available. I'm not that motivated.

loudhvx wrote:

If it was pump wear or bearing wear it would do it anytime the car was hot and sat for 10 or 20 minutes. As I said it was not on the bike. One was a Dodge 318 with 300K miles. The light only stayed on after a hot oil change. Never an issue any other time.

Small world, I had a plymouth duster whose pump started going south at 140k. I do believe a new pump would fix the issue you had. Pumps with wear will hold sufficient pressure (even hot) as long as they are filled up but take a long time to fill and self prime if you drain them dry. We owned more Mopars than I could count, and they never had a pump lag unless they were REALLY old. Had three with the old 225 slant six, two with a 273 and one with a 318. The duster that I ran to 140k with a 225 slant six was the only one who ever wore out an oil pump.