KZ1000 oil pump drive gear

steve3408 wrote:

No one on here is the smartest person on earth,not even you,

I never claimed to be, but I have studied fluid flow dynamics along with a few dozen other related topics. I know how little effect changing the shaft RPM of any pump by a few % will actually have on output (basically about nothing). I also know the ramifications of significantly changing ONLY the pump's output characteristics in an engine designed for a specific oil flow. I think this "magic gear upgrade" is bogus. At best, it will do nothing. At worst, it could seriously screw things up. Just a humble opinion.

ok i want to get my foot in the door on this one because i have thought about modding the oil pump as well. First off i have to agree on the subtracting tooth requires smaller diameter but i have to disagree on the approach for modding the pump to begin with.



i would be modding the gears i pointed out with the red arrows not the drive gear (#23) with slanted gears or a worm gears to make it more efficient and less friction producing contact area. the only way to mod #23 would be to either make a small gear and chain it to the crank or add a gear (which would be three gears making the oil go backwards).


edit: 3 gears includes the crank and the two new mod gears.

Makarth wrote:

ok i want to get my foot in the door on this one because i have thought about modding the oil pump as well. First off i have to agree on the subtracting tooth requires smaller diameter but i have to disagree on the approach for modding the pump to begin with.

i would be modding the gears i pointed out with the red arrows not the drive gear (#23) with slanted gears or a worm gears to make it more efficient and less friction producing contact area. the only way to mod #23 would be to either make a small gear and chain it to the crank or add a gear (which would be three gears making the oil go backwards).


edit: 3 gears includes the crank and the two new mod gears.

Great post Makarth,very interesting points you brought up.

Well finally a fresh perspective,and some intelligent discussion on this thread,... without egotistical perspectives wearing "blinders" to anything they didnt receive in their "edjumacation",and bullying the point on and on that they are right no matter what.LOL..(gotta keep the troops entertained)But it has been a spirited exchange of ideas none the less.It was an idea i wanted to put out there to get some feedback on and maybe a possible modification,if it was possible at all,without getting the thread derailed on whether Zuzuki mod was ONE or TWO gear set up,that doesnt really matter here,since this is about KAWASAKI specifically the KZ900/1000 motors,totally different animals.I too have thought about the internal rotor gears, if there was a way to mod them,and i think makarth is right on with his assessment of that area,its possible but not practical for most people to fabricate/acquire,too bad really, that would probably help these ol' bikes.All in all some good thinkers have contributed to this thread,and its been an interesting trip thru this critcal engine part,with results being pretty much no modifications of any real value are able to be done with part in its configuration.
But if anyone else has light to shine on this subject, please do,i'm sure we'd all like to hear positive thoughts on this.

It's not "egotistical", it's just people with the experience trying to explain why it won't work and save you from wasting time on a dead end.

Sheesh, I argue with BountyHunter all the time, even though I do respect the guy, he's still wrong occasionally, just like I'm wrong occasionally

And neither one of us are "college boys", we're kind of long past the "boys" part

When both of us agree, there's a 99.999999% probability that we're correct

One thing about BountyHunter (and me as well) show him where he's wrong and he'll say "you're right and I'm wrong", but it takes solid facts to do it.

I don't know what reference BountyHunter is arguing from, but mine is Machineries Handbook, the standard reference in the metalworking field.


And now to answer your last question.

There standard way to increase oil flow on the 1000's is to tighten up the clearances by lapping the cover plate.

The closer you can get everything to minimum clearances, the more oil will be pumped out.

Actually lapping the cover plate itself would have no effect on the clearence. The clearence is detemined by the overall width of the blades, the housing and the gasket. The problem really is that there isn't really a problem to begin with! The only problem occurs when the oil runs to the back of the motor away from the pick-up. That can be fixed with a $20 gate for almost any application. Don't try fix what ain't broke!

modprod wrote:

Don't try fix what ain't broke!

There you go again, taking all the fun out of it

I should have said lapping the housing to move the plate closer to the gears.

First time I've been wrong today, but the day's not over yet

Steel worng,,, no tell me it aint so!!!!:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

I did look on line, they say that ape sells the single gear that is used on the suzukis and it only showed one gear, maybe ajy can jump in and explain how it works


steell wrote:

modprod wrote:

Don't try fix what ain't broke!

There you go again, taking all the fun out of it

I should have said lapping the housing to move the plate closer to the gears.

First time I've been wrong today, but the day's not over yet

steell wrote:

I don't know what reference BountyHunter is arguing from, but mine is Machineries Handbook, the standard reference in the metalworking field.

How about simple math? If the diameter of a wheel remains constant, it is absolutely proven that it's circumference is constant. The circumference is the linear distance along which the total gears are spread out. Reduce the number of gears, and is absolutely proven that the distance between each gear MUST increase. Maybe you can stretch it a little without destroying the pinion gear.... I wouldn't try it, but maybe if the change is only a few percent of the total the gears would "sorta mesh" good enough to live. Which leads me directly to my point: exactly who thinks increasing the pump shaft RPM by a few percent is actually going to do anything that is not negligible?

Makarth wrote:

ok i want to get my foot in the door on this one because i have thought about modding the oil pump as well. First off i have to agree on the subtracting tooth requires smaller diameter but i have to disagree on the approach for modding the pump to begin with.



i would be modding the gears i pointed out with the red arrows not the drive gear (#23) with slanted gears or a worm gears to make it more efficient and less friction producing contact area. the only way to mod #23 would be to either make a small gear and chain it to the crank or add a gear (which would be three gears making the oil go backwards).


edit: 3 gears includes the crank and the two new mod gears.

I am not sure I understand the objectives in doing this.

Are you assuming that the amount of volume pushed for a given RPM would increase by going to slanted gears or are you trying to get an increase in pressure for the given RPM?

I don't really see how the friction between the gears is really a critical issue. Since they are bathed in oil, their wear is almost non existent. The pump on my KZ 750 had 75,000 miles at the teardown and there was no measurable wear on any of the dimensions. Reducing friction might very slightly reduce the amount of force required to spin the pump, but since it's driven off the engine, that's not really an issue either.

The thing about cranking up pressure: the typical oil pump actually puts out too much pressure when cold (oil thickest) which is why they have a pressure relief bypass valve. In my engine, I measured that at SUPER hot temps and idling, I was still getting 25 - 30 psi of pressure which is plenty.

I am not sure I see the need for increasing the pressure.

The thing about cranking up pressure: the typical oil pump actually puts out too much pressure when cold (oil thickest) which is why they have a pressure relief bypass valve. In my engine, I measured that at SUPER hot temps and idling, I was still getting 25 - 30 psi of pressure which is plenty.

I am not sure I see the need for increasing the pressure.[/quote]

Well now see theres a big difference in KZ750 and the KZ900/KZ1000, if if the big KZ's were getting those oil pressures youre getting with the 750,it wouldnt even be a topic on here,the KZ900/1000 start cold around 8-10 lbs,then when hot stay around 2.8 lbs @3000rpm, 60 mph and when idling they are about 1/2 to 1 lb of oil pressure,real close to nothing when you stop in traffic.
Now i understand why you dont see the need for increasing the pressure, heck i'd be happy if my KZ1000 got half the pressure the 750's are getting.Thats why the "KZ1000 was in the subject line on this thread for thoughts on their oil systems as opposed to the smaller motorbikes with completely different engine sysytems.But thats good reference material on the other Kawi's,are the 750 not roller bearing crank motors? maybe thats why they have more pressure.

steve3408 wrote:

The thing about cranking up pressure: the typical oil pump actually puts out too much pressure when cold (oil thickest) which is why they have a pressure relief bypass valve. In my engine, I measured that at SUPER hot temps and idling, I was still getting 25 - 30 psi of pressure which is plenty.

I am not sure I see the need for increasing the pressure.

Well now see theres a big difference in KZ750 and the KZ900/KZ1000, if if the big KZ's were getting those oil pressures youre getting with the 750,it wouldnt even be a topic on here,the KZ900/1000 start cold around 8-10 lbs,then when hot stay around 2.8 lbs @3000rpm[/quote]

I am well aware that the KZ1000 uses a lower pressure system, but my questions, which remain unsanswered, are the same regardless:

1) What is the objective of screwing with the design of the pump gears: more pressure or higher volume?

2) Why do you have the implicit assumption that the stock system is either underpressured or underpumped?

What you apparrently don't realize is a number of things: a pump delivering fluid to a system is doing a specific amount of volume at a given pressure. If you try to increase the flow volume, that will automatically require more pressure because of the inherent back pressure of what the pump is working against.

Pumps are also highly non-linear: to get a little more volume may take a LOT more push.

But, it again points to the unanswered question: why do you think the stock pump in the KZ1000 or Suzuki Whatever is undersupplying the engine with oil and needs a higher output pump? To be honest, I have never heard anybody complain about that.

steve3408 wrote:

The thing about cranking up pressure: the typical oil pump actually puts out too much pressure when cold (oil thickest) which is why they have a pressure relief bypass valve. In my engine, I measured that at SUPER hot temps and idling, I was still getting 25 - 30 psi of pressure which is plenty.

I am not sure I see the need for increasing the pressure.

Well now see theres a big difference in KZ750 and the KZ900/KZ1000, if if the big KZ's were getting those oil pressures youre getting with the 750,it wouldnt even be a topic on here,the KZ900/1000 start cold around 8-10 lbs,then when hot stay around 2.8 lbs @3000rpm, 60 mph and when idling they are about 1/2 to 1 lb of oil pressure,real close to nothing when you stop in traffic.
Now i understand why you dont see the need for increasing the pressure, heck i'd be happy if my KZ1000 got half the pressure the 750's are getting.[/quote]

Now I understand why this thread is basically pointless. If you understood the design of the 1000 bearings, you'd know why it works with lower pressure (roller bearings). BTW, the KZ-1000 was the standard issue bike for the CHP for MANY years and local PD's all used it as well. It was subject to massive numbers of miles and abuse, and the engines gave good service so the oil system must be designed right.

If you want to pump yours up to 25 psi, go for it.:ohmy: