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TOPIC: KZ1100 Performance Upgrade

KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 13 Jun 2019 04:45 #805636

  • Hardgun
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Well I needed to heat cycle it and torque the head nuts before I took it out. At least that's the way half the people out there do it. No more heat than running it on the street. I am aware of the glazing issue; from what I've found researching (and I'm by no means an expert, just going off the information I could find and what made sense to me) that's the reason for 2500 rpm over just sitting at regular idle speed so you have more cylinder pressure when you do that heat cycle. I know some people say go out and bang it immediately and some say baby it and there's a million different angles on break in procedure. The way I've done it seems to have worked fine, I've got good compression across all four.
But hey, maybe I can do it better next time! :side:
What would be your recommendation, for future reference? And I mean this with upmost respect, but what sort of experience do you have with break in procedures?
1983 KZ750 LTD
1982 KZ1100 A2 Cafe

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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 13 Jun 2019 08:36 #805652

  • baldy110
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When I'm ready to break in a fresh engine I make sure everything is ready for a ride, engine oil no oil leaks, air in tires, ect. I get my riding gear on roll the bike out get on the bike then start it and immediately ride it. I pre choose a route with no stopping and usually has a hill. I accelerate in first gear hard but not at full throttle or to redline. I'll roll off the throttle and let the engine braking slow me down to about 10 mph. I'll do this three times then shift into second gear and repeat then third, repeat, ect. By then I'm at the hill I chose I'll ride up the hilin third gear and accel hard. When I get to the top ill turn and start down the hill when I shift into third gear and around 70 mph I'll let the engine braking slow me down to about 10 mph shifting down as needed.
I then ride home home like normal park the bike overnight. In the morning re torque head bolts change the oil, do any tuning if needed then I'm done with break in.
My Dad taught me this when I was 12 and it worked on the thousand plus engines he overhauled and it's worked on the hundreds of big Kawasaki engines I've done. I've never had one come back and they all run strong and burn no oil.
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 13 Jun 2019 09:08 #805655

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Thanks Baldy110!

Similar for top-end ring job only?

:)
1982 KZ1100A-2 (sort-of)
January 2016 BOTM

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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 13 Jun 2019 09:31 #805659

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I understand. I guess Ill have to keep that in mind for next time. I guess there's no real reason to keep it off the road for that first heat cycle; at least none that I know of. I was concerned about seeping oil without that second torque down of the head nuts. I'll have to get my compression numbers again when I'm back from vacation and next time I set some rings I'll probably do it your way and we'll see if we can't prove a difference.
I mean, who wouldn't want to get on their bike quicker anyways? ;)
Good news is so far I don't see any signs of burning oil, but then again I'm only roughly 120 miles into the fresh top end.
1983 KZ750 LTD
1982 KZ1100 A2 Cafe

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Last edit: by Hardgun.

KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 13 Jun 2019 15:05 #805684

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Yes just like a top end ring job. I even have a case of break in 30 wt oil I use just for this. About 8 years ago I overhauled a GPZ1100 and used my usual oil for breakin Rotella 15-40 wt like I've done dozens of time. I went for my break in ride but I could not get the rings to seat, lots of blowby and low compression. Tore the top end off de glazed the cylinders and put in new rings. Use the same oil and my break in procedure. Again lots of blowby and low compression, very frustrating. Tore the top end off again de glazed the cylinders, new rings again but this time I put in break in oil. Did my break in and this time great compression, no blowby and ran fantastic.
Did a bunch of research and discovered the oil companies are making their oils so good it's not allowing a good bed in on the rings. The break in oil has no friction reducers its like the oil from 30 years ago.
I am curious where did you find the info to let the engine idle at 2500 rpm to heat cycle the engine? I've been building motorcycle engines since 1976 and have never came across that one.
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Last edit: by baldy110.

KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 14 Jun 2019 07:00 #805710

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www.kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/607610-st...engine-after-rebuild

There ya go, that's where i found it. Even on there it says 5 min so obviously 15 min was an exaggeration. :silly: Like I said I went off of temperature so my internal clock is a tad off.
1983 KZ750 LTD
1982 KZ1100 A2 Cafe

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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 14 Jun 2019 07:34 #805711

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Build it... Start it.... Ride it. Job Done.
Just don't thrash it or cruise at a constant speed/rpm out of the gate.
Use engine braking to push the rings into the bore.
No need for idling at whatever rpms unless you want to risk glazing the bores and no need to limit the max rpm's for any specific time or mileage period .
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 14 Jun 2019 12:06 #805720

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Yeah I was engine breaking as often as possible during those first 100 miles and varying my rpm. Maybe that was my saving grace as far as the whole glazing issue. Just made sense to me to heat cycle and get the head nuts torqued down properly before actually riding it.
1983 KZ750 LTD
1982 KZ1100 A2 Cafe

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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 14 Jun 2019 16:06 #805729

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Just remember for the next time, NO idling even a high idle start it and ride it. Also when you swap out heads be aware as you pull the old head off you will disturb the base gasket and could cause an oil leak. Whenever I work on a head I always remove the cylinder and replace the base gasket just so I don't have the customer coming back with a leaking base gasket later. I use that opportunity to de-glaze the cylinder and if the rings are good I'll reuse them. After getting it all back together I'll do my break in on the engine.
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 14 Jun 2019 21:49 #805741

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Like Baldy, I follow the same bedding In . I go for a ride and constantly torque the motor to 4K rpm . After checking the engine I keep on torquing now and then and prevent constant speed.
As stated idling to long glazes the bores/ rings. I never understand why riders (in Australia where its warmer) warm up the bikes every morning for 5 to 10 minutes or more.
First Permanent ride the Z1R since Dec1977 (220,000km) as of June 2015
Second permanent bike 1989 FJ1200 my work horse, growing on me, great bike.
Third ride is now the Frankenstein GPZ1100, now if only I can ride three bikes at once?
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 15 Jun 2019 07:13 #805750

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When installing a freshly-honed cylinder block and new rings (top-end below the head only), how important for carb jetting and synchronization to be correct for startup and break-in?

I assume the previous carb settings will be close enough to start with, but for how long...considering the sync process may involve a period of extended idling time?

:cheer:
1982 KZ1100A-2 (sort-of)
January 2016 BOTM

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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 15 Jun 2019 09:00 #805756

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Unless you have some unknown combination of parts on the bike the jetting and state of tune really doesn't matter as long as it's ridable just ride it. Seat the rings then tune it later. Ive built some engines with wild cams, ported heads, big pistons, big carbs, ect. I tune the carbs prior to start using my past experience on jetting. It's not perfectly tuned but good enough for bedding in rings. The bike doesn't even need to idle correctly afterall no idling remember?
What a lot of people don't realize is you only have one chance at breakin. Do it wrong and it requires a top end teardown, de glaze and rings. No amount of riding trying to bed the rings will work once the cylinders are glazed. Like I mentioned earlier break in occures in the first 15 to 20 minutes of it running. That is a narrow window so if you let the bike just sit there at idle all your doing is risking glazing the cylinders. Do your tuning after break in,
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 16 Jun 2019 06:11 #805819

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This is all great advice guys I appreciate it. When i get that new head I'll probably just take it down to the base gasket and do like you said. Ill already have the head off so why not?
Yeah i just stuck with the same jetting i had before hand (plus a dynajet kit so guess the needle IS different). Mine isn't that radical of a change all i figured it'd be close enough to break it in so i could work on tuning like you said to do baldy110.
1983 KZ750 LTD
1982 KZ1100 A2 Cafe

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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 16 Jun 2019 10:56 #805844

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Been building engines for over 40 years and grease both sides of the base gasket ( in fact all paper gaskets ) and it stops them sticking and tearing on removal and aids settlement when bolting down.
Have re-used many gaskets with no issues once treated like that.
Never had one leak when i've had just the heads off for whatever reason.
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 16 Jun 2019 11:07 #805845

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zed1015 wrote: Been building engines for over 40 years and grease both sides of the base gasket ( in fact all paper gaskets ) and it stops them sticking and tearing on removal and aids settlement when bolting down.
Have re-used many gaskets with no issues once treated like that.
Never had one leak when i've had just the heads off for whatever reason.


I worked in a small shop while I was in college (auto mechanics). My boss required me to grease up all intake and exhaust gaskets prior to installation. The intakes came off easily and were reusable and the exhaust gaskets burned the grease into carobon which also came apart easily. The grease works great IMHO.

The last time I replaced my OEM base gasket, I put it on dry, and it is showing no leaks. I need to redo those pesky O-rings due to some slight seepage, but plan to deglaze and replace the base gasket again at that time. (not a big priority) I still need the APE studs, so this will wait until I can get a set. I also plan to glue this top end together like pitstop joe does it.

www.pitstopperformance.com/top-end-assembly/

1981 Kawasaki Kz1000K1
Located in the Saint Louis, Missouri Area.
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 16 Jun 2019 13:58 #805860

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You get no leaks cause you grease the base gasket Zed. I spray all my base gaskets with copper coat. That also prevents the gasket from sticking so i get no leaks when I pull only the head. The problem is when I have to pull the head on a bike I've never worked then I have an unknown so I simply pull the cylinder that way I know for sure it won't leak later. I HATE doing a job twice.
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 16 Jun 2019 14:49 #805863

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Nice! I put mine on dry cause i was worried about that. The one that was on when i took the jugs off was a PITA to remove.
I almost glued my top end together like that also! Even got the gasgacinch and yamabond; but i decided not to at the last minute just because i didn't want to remove that when i get the new head. Id bet Joe does it so thoroughly just so he can assure his customers they won't leak.
I haven't had any signs of leakage yet but i bet the extra 10 ft lbs the ape studs give me help with that.
1983 KZ750 LTD
1982 KZ1100 A2 Cafe
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Last edit: by Hardgun.

KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 16 Jun 2019 15:19 #805865

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Hardgun wrote: Nice! I put mine on dry cause i was worried about that. The one that was on when i took the jugs off was a PITA to remove.
I almost glued my top end together like that also! Even got the gasgacinch and yamabond; but i decided not to at the last minute just because i didn't want to remove that when i get the new head. Id bet Joe does it so thoroughly just so he can assure his customers they won't leak.
I haven't had any signs of leakage yet but i bet the extra 10 ft lbs the ape studs give me help with that.


i'd have to say that the cylinder base gasket had to be the WORST gasket I have ever removed. It was glued on HARD. Come to think of it, the whole motor was glued together hard. There were still remnants of the base gasket when I reassembled the engine. It would have been easier to remove the studs, then use the scotch brite disks to remove the rest, but as usual, hindsight is always 20-20. I may use the scotch brite disks next time. IDK.


The thing with the grease coating is that it lets the gasket conform to all of the small surface inconsistencies, and at the same time causes the gasket material to swell slightly, while allowing disassembly without tearing that $30.00 OEM base gasket. After it is run the engine oil wicks in and causes it to swell slightly.

I would say you are correct as to why Joe glues (and recommends gluing) the motors together, >comebacks<.. OR clueless customers that want to blame him if a motor they assemble themselves, yet going by his instructions leaks from those neato O-rings.
1981 Kawasaki Kz1000K1
Located in the Saint Louis, Missouri Area.
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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 16 Jun 2019 16:59 #805874

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Yeah i took the sleeves out and took a milled aluminum plate with 400 grit sheet glued to it to evenly remove the rock hard remnants off the jugs. Still a little there but i started to hit the surface so i left it. Thought about doing that on the case surface but i didn't want any silica glass to end up down on my crank so i just used lots of lacquer thinner and a couple hours of scraping to get it as good as i could. 35 years and what i would assume is some glue from factory really makes that gasket solid.
1983 KZ750 LTD
1982 KZ1100 A2 Cafe

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KZ1100 Performance Upgrade 16 Jun 2019 18:49 #805880

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Yeah they are a PITA especially if it's the first time apart since new.

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