- Posts: 182
- Thank you received: 10
Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
- Bdog
- Offline
- User
- Sweep the leg johnny!!!
Less
More
10 Jun 2021 11:31 #849963
by Bdog
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/338400-a-little-bit-of-an-upgrade
'77 KZ650-C1 -- build
810 kit
GPZ cams and carbs
ZX6R front end
GSXR600 Rear
Kerker
Dyna
Accel
ContiMotion tires (120/60-17&170/60-17)
Replied by Bdog on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
Seems like a neat project. My brother had his XS650 rephased, I understand it is supposed to run smoother that way and make some more power. I can't vouch for that since hes hardly riden it since it was finished and likes to jump from one project to the next...
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/338400-a-little-bit-of-an-upgrade
'77 KZ650-C1 -- build
810 kit
GPZ cams and carbs
ZX6R front end
GSXR600 Rear
Kerker
Dyna
Accel
ContiMotion tires (120/60-17&170/60-17)
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- DoctoRot
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
- Oh, the usual... I bowl, I drive around...
Less
More
- Posts: 2539
- Thank you received: 669
10 Jun 2021 15:26 - 10 Jun 2021 15:27 #849983
by DoctoRot
Replied by DoctoRot on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
I really wanted to rephase this engine, but because its a forged single piece crank the cost of a custom crank ruled that out. The glut of cool performance parts for the XS650 makes it very attractive as a platform.
Last edit: 10 Jun 2021 15:27 by DoctoRot.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- DoctoRot
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
- Oh, the usual... I bowl, I drive around...
Less
More
- Posts: 2539
- Thank you received: 669
10 Jun 2021 16:19 - 10 Jun 2021 16:53 #849986
by DoctoRot
Replied by DoctoRot on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
The engine build is what started this project, I was initially building this for my other 750 twin, but decided an engine such as this need a chassis that was built to the same standard.
Prior to this project I had never gone that deep into 4 stroke engine theory. This project had me reading several books on tuning 4 stroke engines, lots of late nights reading on the interwebs going into calculations and theory and then trying to apply that to my fairly conservative engine build. Looking back knowing what I know now there are some things I would have done differently but you gotta start somewhere. Below is what I've settled on, its not the end all be all, but its the culmination of my research and how much money I was willing to sink into this project.
Transmission - 1983 twin, under cut by APE. The 83 twin has a lower 5th gear ratio than the 76-82 models resulting in a higher top speed.
Clutch - Basket from 83 twin - this clutch basket is aluminum saving over a pound in rotational mass, it also actuates from the right side of the engine allowing a much larger output shaft sprocket. Stock clutch disks with 20% stiffer springs from a Ninja 650.
Balancer - additional rings pressed on sprockets
Case - Bored for big sleeves, oil gallery tapped with 1/4" NPT for oil cooler, APE HD cylinder studs, grade 12 main studs.
Crank - Balanced and mirco-polished by Revco Precision
Connecting Rods - Custom rods from Carillo. uses King bearings for a ZX -14. the ZX14 uses bearings with the exact same dimensions as the KZ750 the only difference is the location of the bearing tang. these things are pure art. its a shame they are hidden in the engine.
Pistons - Custom JE pistons with custom iron liners - 86 mm. 10.25/1 in this application
Cylinder head - custom valve train and porting from Schumann Motorworks. 1mm oversize titanium intake valve - stock size titanium exhaust valve. Custom bronze valve guides to neck the valves down from stock 8mm stem to 7mm stem. beehive springs and titanium keepers.
Cams - Web Cam custom grind. IN: .406" lift @230 degrees of duration. EX: .418" lift @ 261 degrees duration
Exhaust - 1.5" 18GA 13"L primary, step up to 1.625" 18GA 13"L primary, 2" 18GA collector 16-20"L. I've always wanted a set of high pipes despite being impractical on a race bike. Ive ordered the bends from Burns. I want to build something crazy.
Carbs - TBD but likely a set of FCR 39 carbs. back up will be RS-38 neither of these carbs would be technically legal in WERA but i love pumper carbs. easy enough to switch out later if i need to.
Ignition/coils - Optical ignition and coils from Power Arc.
Prior to this project I had never gone that deep into 4 stroke engine theory. This project had me reading several books on tuning 4 stroke engines, lots of late nights reading on the interwebs going into calculations and theory and then trying to apply that to my fairly conservative engine build. Looking back knowing what I know now there are some things I would have done differently but you gotta start somewhere. Below is what I've settled on, its not the end all be all, but its the culmination of my research and how much money I was willing to sink into this project.
Transmission - 1983 twin, under cut by APE. The 83 twin has a lower 5th gear ratio than the 76-82 models resulting in a higher top speed.
Clutch - Basket from 83 twin - this clutch basket is aluminum saving over a pound in rotational mass, it also actuates from the right side of the engine allowing a much larger output shaft sprocket. Stock clutch disks with 20% stiffer springs from a Ninja 650.
Balancer - additional rings pressed on sprockets
Case - Bored for big sleeves, oil gallery tapped with 1/4" NPT for oil cooler, APE HD cylinder studs, grade 12 main studs.
Crank - Balanced and mirco-polished by Revco Precision
Connecting Rods - Custom rods from Carillo. uses King bearings for a ZX -14. the ZX14 uses bearings with the exact same dimensions as the KZ750 the only difference is the location of the bearing tang. these things are pure art. its a shame they are hidden in the engine.
Pistons - Custom JE pistons with custom iron liners - 86 mm. 10.25/1 in this application
Cylinder head - custom valve train and porting from Schumann Motorworks. 1mm oversize titanium intake valve - stock size titanium exhaust valve. Custom bronze valve guides to neck the valves down from stock 8mm stem to 7mm stem. beehive springs and titanium keepers.
Cams - Web Cam custom grind. IN: .406" lift @230 degrees of duration. EX: .418" lift @ 261 degrees duration
Exhaust - 1.5" 18GA 13"L primary, step up to 1.625" 18GA 13"L primary, 2" 18GA collector 16-20"L. I've always wanted a set of high pipes despite being impractical on a race bike. Ive ordered the bends from Burns. I want to build something crazy.
Carbs - TBD but likely a set of FCR 39 carbs. back up will be RS-38 neither of these carbs would be technically legal in WERA but i love pumper carbs. easy enough to switch out later if i need to.
Ignition/coils - Optical ignition and coils from Power Arc.
Last edit: 10 Jun 2021 16:53 by DoctoRot.
The following user(s) said Thank You: DOHC
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- DoctoRot
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
- Oh, the usual... I bowl, I drive around...
Less
More
- Posts: 2539
- Thank you received: 669
10 Jun 2021 16:19 - 10 Jun 2021 17:38 #849987
by DoctoRot
Replied by DoctoRot on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
Bottom End assembly is complete.
Cases were very corroded. They were too big to fit in my crappy HF blaster, so 2 layers of duct tape and i got them blasted for $60. The blasting revealed how pitted the cases were so I chickened out and went black on the case paint. cleaned manaicaly like 4 times before painting with KG- Gun Kote satin black and baked them in the oven.
Whoever took off the cylinders before me did a number on the cylinder mating surface. There were some deep gouges from them prying off the cylinder. I wanted to make sure there were no high spots so I very lightly lapped this surface with some 220 grit on a surface plate. this revealed a low spot and a little more lapping removed it.
I removed the sludge plugs on the crank and after a thorough cleaning I reinstalled the plugs and tacked them in with some silicon bronze.
The Carillo rod bolts are tightened to the amount of stretch with these CARR bolts the stretch is .0065"-.0075". this was about 45 ft lbs. I clamped a drill vice down to hold the crank during the process so i could get accurate measurements with a micrometer.
I found some grade 12 socket bolts to replace the main crank case bolts. fitted with a thick hardened washer.
Sadly this project is being put on ice for the moment. and this engine is getting boxed up and stored for probably at least a year until i can get a shop setup again. I am moving out of state and will be dealing with all of that.
Cases were very corroded. They were too big to fit in my crappy HF blaster, so 2 layers of duct tape and i got them blasted for $60. The blasting revealed how pitted the cases were so I chickened out and went black on the case paint. cleaned manaicaly like 4 times before painting with KG- Gun Kote satin black and baked them in the oven.
Whoever took off the cylinders before me did a number on the cylinder mating surface. There were some deep gouges from them prying off the cylinder. I wanted to make sure there were no high spots so I very lightly lapped this surface with some 220 grit on a surface plate. this revealed a low spot and a little more lapping removed it.
I removed the sludge plugs on the crank and after a thorough cleaning I reinstalled the plugs and tacked them in with some silicon bronze.
The Carillo rod bolts are tightened to the amount of stretch with these CARR bolts the stretch is .0065"-.0075". this was about 45 ft lbs. I clamped a drill vice down to hold the crank during the process so i could get accurate measurements with a micrometer.
I found some grade 12 socket bolts to replace the main crank case bolts. fitted with a thick hardened washer.
Sadly this project is being put on ice for the moment. and this engine is getting boxed up and stored for probably at least a year until i can get a shop setup again. I am moving out of state and will be dealing with all of that.
Last edit: 10 Jun 2021 17:38 by DoctoRot.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Nessism, Dragbike_Mike, howardhb
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- TexasKZ
- Offline
- Platinum Member
Less
More
- Posts: 7580
- Thank you received: 2233
10 Jun 2021 21:45 #849998
by TexasKZ
1982 KZ1000 LTD parts donor
1981 KZ1000 LTD awaiting resurrection
2000 ZRX1100 not ridden enough
Replied by TexasKZ on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
Very cool. I hope your move goes well. In the mean time, a bunch of us here are going to be suffering from withdrawal until the project gets back on track.
1982 KZ1000 LTD parts donor
1981 KZ1000 LTD awaiting resurrection
2000 ZRX1100 not ridden enough
The following user(s) said Thank You: Nessism
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- F64
- Offline
- User
- 81-KZ440D2
Less
More
- Posts: 1117
- Thank you received: 401
11 Jun 2021 08:27 - 11 Jun 2021 08:29 #850007
by F64
81-KZ440-D2.
Louis Dudzik's GM HEI ignitor conversion installed 2015 s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/Ignition/GPZgmHEImod.html
Motogadget m-unit blue installed 2017.
LIC, NY
Replied by F64 on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
Hi Vic,
One thing caught my eye. Not sure if it will be an issue. Your socket bolt diameter doesn't neck down when it reaches the threads like the oem bolt to the left. That may be a site of stress concentration on the socket bolt.
I've included a link from Kevin Cameron on the issue.
One thing caught my eye. Not sure if it will be an issue. Your socket bolt diameter doesn't neck down when it reaches the threads like the oem bolt to the left. That may be a site of stress concentration on the socket bolt.
I've included a link from Kevin Cameron on the issue.
81-KZ440-D2.
Louis Dudzik's GM HEI ignitor conversion installed 2015 s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/Ignition/GPZgmHEImod.html
Motogadget m-unit blue installed 2017.
LIC, NY
Last edit: 11 Jun 2021 08:29 by F64.
The following user(s) said Thank You: DoctoRot, SWest, Dragbike_Mike, howardhb
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Nessism
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
Less
More
- Posts: 7460
- Thank you received: 2829
11 Jun 2021 09:02 #850008
by Nessism
Replied by Nessism on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
The new bolts are thicker so they can't neck down. The old bolts will stretch more than the new ones at the same torque level. Only minor question is whether or not that matters?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- DoctoRot
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
- Oh, the usual... I bowl, I drive around...
Less
More
- Posts: 2539
- Thank you received: 669
11 Jun 2021 23:01 - 11 Jun 2021 23:02 #850043
by DoctoRot
Replied by DoctoRot on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
Its things like this that make me love this website. Never would have occured to me that this could be an issue. thanks for sharing the video. The CARR bolts on these custom rods also had this necked down feature- clearly there is credence to this. What I find interesting is the APE heavy duty studs fly flagrantly in this face of this logic. Perhaps they are snake oil and a marketing ploy? either way i would be surprised if these grade 12 bolts were at risk of failure if the APE studs were OK. I mostly subbed these bolts out for cosmetic purposes truth be told. The OEM bolts were generally very low quality, but the main/cylinder studs might be an exception.Hi Vic,
One thing caught my eye. Not sure if it will be an issue. Your socket bolt diameter doesn't neck down when it reaches the threads like the oem bolt to the left. That may be a site of stress concentration on the socket bolt.
I've included a link from Kevin Cameron on the issue.
Last edit: 11 Jun 2021 23:02 by DoctoRot.
The following user(s) said Thank You: F64
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- DoctoRot
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
- Oh, the usual... I bowl, I drive around...
Less
More
- Posts: 2539
- Thank you received: 669
13 Jun 2021 00:41 #850100
by DoctoRot
Replied by DoctoRot on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
I noticed this today... same tapered feature on these driver bits. I may revisit this on the crank bolts
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Ian_B
- Offline
- User
Less
More
- Posts: 86
- Thank you received: 12
18 May 2022 23:56 #867297
by Ian_B
Replied by Ian_B on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
I think the guy in the video on cylinder bolts has no clue about how threads are made. The reason that the bolt is "necked down" is that the thread has been cold rolled into the blank. This forms deeper grooves (the thread roots) in the blank, and the material from those is pushed up into the thread crests. This is a really good way of making threads:
- It preserves the grain structure of the blank (cutting a thread with a die or single pointing it interrupts the structure)
- It puts the surface in compression, which improves stress resistance - similar to shot peening
- It's fast, gives an excellent surface finish and there's no waste material
Doing what he did - machining the shank on an already turned thread so that it "looks" like a rolled thread will not do anything to decrease stress at the start of the thread. It will however result in the bolt stretching more for a given torque, which may be how he "cured" the problem.
Here's how threads are rolled: www.productionmachining.com/articles/5-f...bout-thread-rolling-
For a lot more useful information on threads and bolts in general, see www.boltscience.com/ - lots of good information on antivibration washers and bolt torqueing.
Ian
- It preserves the grain structure of the blank (cutting a thread with a die or single pointing it interrupts the structure)
- It puts the surface in compression, which improves stress resistance - similar to shot peening
- It's fast, gives an excellent surface finish and there's no waste material
Doing what he did - machining the shank on an already turned thread so that it "looks" like a rolled thread will not do anything to decrease stress at the start of the thread. It will however result in the bolt stretching more for a given torque, which may be how he "cured" the problem.
Here's how threads are rolled: www.productionmachining.com/articles/5-f...bout-thread-rolling-
For a lot more useful information on threads and bolts in general, see www.boltscience.com/ - lots of good information on antivibration washers and bolt torqueing.
Ian
The following user(s) said Thank You: 750 R1, howardhb
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- blipco
- Offline
- User
- 2002 KZ1000P
Less
More
- Posts: 555
- Thank you received: 212
19 May 2022 05:55 #867302
by blipco
"Swim against the current, even a dead fish can go with the flow"-somebody (I forget Who)
Replied by blipco on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
"the guy" ?
"Swim against the current, even a dead fish can go with the flow"-somebody (I forget Who)
The following user(s) said Thank You: slayer61
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- DoctoRot
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
- Oh, the usual... I bowl, I drive around...
Less
More
- Posts: 2539
- Thank you received: 669
19 May 2022 15:50 - 19 May 2022 16:09 #867340
by DoctoRot
Replied by DoctoRot on topic Make a slow bike fast - KZ750 Twin
Did you watch the video? he never talks about thread forming, its all about stress concentration.
from boltscience - "High performance bolts are often designed so that the plain shank is smaller than the stress diameter of the thread. This is done so that the stretch that occurs under the preload induced from the tightening process is maximised. "
would this not spread the stress at the threads over a larger area by allowing the bolt to stretch instead of fracture, thus achieving his goal as stated in the video?
from boltscience - "High performance bolts are often designed so that the plain shank is smaller than the stress diameter of the thread. This is done so that the stretch that occurs under the preload induced from the tightening process is maximised. "
would this not spread the stress at the threads over a larger area by allowing the bolt to stretch instead of fracture, thus achieving his goal as stated in the video?
Last edit: 19 May 2022 16:09 by DoctoRot.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.