TOPIC:

Just changed the oil in the Z1 after about 1500 miles. Have no idea how many miles the engine has on her (see signature) but attached to my magnetic plug I found these beauties. (Brown thing is a grain of rice for size comparison.) Most of the debris is magnetic. I found less than this, probably half, at last oil change. Anybody want to make educated guesses as to what these are and how unusual or detrimental these bits are. I have put about 2000 miles on her this year thus far.

The rebuild of the original motor is supposed to be a slow winter project not a now thing!

Thanks


Post edited by: CTSZ1, at: 2006/07/08 22:29

another pic.

aluminum pieces it looks like to me:S anything rattling or shaking? .maybe pop off valve cover and drop oil pan to look for big stuff,pieces of aluminum really play hell when they find their way into trans.

Short of some other details, it's difficult to know for sure, but the usual source of magnetic-bits in the pan is the cam chain assembly - rollers, idlers, sprockets, guide and tensioner. I've seen entire guides popped out of place and sitting at the bottom of the tunnel.

When's the last time anyone had a look inside the motor?

If the composite/hard rubber/whatever block has been worn off the end of the tensioner, the chain could be slowly sawing its way through the metal.

If there is also aluminum filings in the mix, the can chain could be making contact with the inner edge of the front of the cylinder block/cases, hogging a bit of material out of there as well.

Not to say that any of the above is definitively your problem, but I've seen likewise symptoms before, and that's always been at least partially the cause...

Wireman, not aluminum as most of the debris is magnetic, although there were a few pieces that were not magnetic but they were very small. No undue noise up top, and the little you can see with the cam cover removed looks fine, cam chain seems to be tight too. I keep a close eye on my shim gaps so I'm in there pretty regularly.

Pterosaur, As far as I know it has been years since anyone has been in the engine below the cam cover. I bought it from a friend who had it sitting in his shed for who knows how long. It had good compression so I bought it. I've not noticed a lot of aluminum, but there are usually a few small flakes. I need to drop the oil pan as Wireman suggests, should have done that before I mounted the engine last winter.
Guess that'd be a good time to look at the tensioner too.

Live and learn. Thanks guys! Any other thoughts?

Post edited by: CTSZ1, at: 2006/07/08 23:01

"Undue" noise is a relative thing; you'd think that with the better part of the tensioning hardware laying in a heap down at the bottom of the tunnel, a motor'd be sounding like a fair imitation of a jackhammer, but not necessarily so - until it ate a piston due to lack of oil, the motor I'm referencing didn't sound terribly sick either.

Pulling the pan is a splendid idea. Might want to get one of those little LED flashlight extentions and have a good look up, in and around as far as possible.

The relative lack of aluminum in the oil may actually be a good sign; what's being et up in there hasn't gotten at the block or associated surfaces yet.

Wireman's also right about FOD in the oil not being healthy for the trans/clutch and whatever else it may work itself into. Your filter is protecting you, but it ain't a miracle worker.

If I'm in the ballpark on your problem, you can pull the head and replace the top roller, front/rear guides and tensioner and get away pretty cheap - it doesn't sound like you have really big $$ problems quite yet - but I wouldn't go for any 300 milers until I got a look at her innards...

Hope that helps...

could it be stuff from the tranny? Maybe like from an oopsie shift or three?

Leather wrote:

could it be stuff from the tranny? Maybe like from an oopsie shift or three?

Anything's *possible* - but it's not likely in this case. Those gears are *hard*. If something's eating gears, you'll know about it in a hurry, and it won't be quiet about it either.

The largest source of mild steel with direct access to the pan is the tensioner assembly...

Looks just like the remnants of the 3 camchain idler gears inner material. Dont think that stuff is magnetic though.

Most times magnetic parts are from a cam chain guide that's disintegrated, fallen into the crank and been chewed up. I've also seen broken clutch plate parts in the pan but rarely anything else.

If the cam chain guide is broken, you need to replace it before some serious damage occurs. Removing the cam cover and looking down the cam tunnel with a bright light and a small mirror will tell the tale. It's also worth removing the oil pan and seeing if you have much more scrap metal in the pan. You can remove the pan with the engine in the frame - you just need to remove the exhaust system and the oil filter / filter bolt.

If the front guide is broken, the cam timing changes as the chain is shortcutting that part of it's route - so not only is the chain now chewing the front of the block, but the engine will run rough.

Post edited by: Jeff.Saunders, at: 2006/07/09 08:02

Thanks for the time & info guys, looks like she'll be sidelined for a little while while I investigate. I'll post the results of my digging. I've pretty much babied this motor while working on the original engine to get it running again. No hole shots or big rpm's. I've kissed 90 mph a couple of times, but that's the extent of my madness. Lorcan is not going to be passed by me! Now what the po did, I have no idea.

Thanks again fellows.

it looks like fragments of the lock washer from the clutch hub this is a steel washer you knock over to lock down the assembly.
cam chain guide failure is accompanied by lots of chewed rubber and plastic stuff and running noise is elevated like a band saw
hope it isn't a rod babbit bearing partially out seen that too .
look in the oil pan and the clutch covers there will be clues inside leading to the scene of the crime

Post edited by: trippivot, at: 2006/07/09 12:40