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TOPIC: Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries?

Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 09:45 #804436

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries?
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 09:53 #804437

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weeZee wrote: OK, and when the sense wire is connected, this voltage is reduced?
The photo posted last week displayed a lower value, with the sense wire connected can you confirm that this value remained below about 14.3 for idle and 4k?


The only lower value than 13.7 volts was when the amp meter showed 0.0 amps, meaning the engine was off. There is a caption above every photo telling the test conditions. Reading comprehension is a good thing.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 10:15 #804441

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weeZee wrote: Sorry, but I'm referring to the sense wires on Shindengen RR units, specifically the circuit used to compensate for voltage drop in the loom.
Now if you have some results of the output battery voltage going over a 14.3v preset when the sense wire is floating, that would be informative.
There is no good engineering design reason to have an independent sense circuit in a regulator.
You're making an unsubstantiated assertion, and I find that it's easier to deal with data than egos.


I'm not making any assertion that isn't well-established fact among people who have actually worked on Kz's and have posted their findings here. Everyone else over the last 20 years have found the same results. If a diametrically opposed result, like the one you were speculating on (apparently without actually doing any tests on a working bike) were found, those discussions would have happened decades ago.

You can take up your claim about there being no reason for a sense line with Kawasaki. The fact is, they put one on most of their regulators, and I see at least one reason possibly more why that would be beneficial... but who cares. The facts are that Kz regulators used on permanent-magnet alternators often (but not always) have a brown sense line connected to a switched 12v source. Look at any Kz550 wiring diagram. Look at any post-1980 Kz650 diagram. Look at any Kz750-four diagram. Look at any Kz1000 diagram. And furthermore, removing that brown wire from that type of regulator lets the full alternator output boil the battery.

The internal operation of the regulator may be of importance to the precision required by Lithium batteries and a discussion on it may help explain why some other type of regulator may or may not be better. But forcing others to bring you up to speed and arguing what has to be pure speculation against long-established fact is wasting everyone's time.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 10:51 #804443

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old_kaw wrote:

weeZee wrote: OK, and when the sense wire is connected, this voltage is reduced?
The photo posted last week displayed a lower value, with the sense wire connected can you confirm that this value remained below about 14.3 for idle and 4k?


The only lower value than 13.7 volts was when the amp meter showed 0.0 amps, meaning the engine was off. There is a caption above every photo telling the test conditions. Reading comprehension is a good thing.


What I'm asking is simply whether you have a photo showing the voltage coming out of the RR with the sense wire disconnected and the bike at around 4k rpm.
Apologies if I've missed this in the thread, but there appears to be a lot of heat and light. Perhaps you can assist.

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 10:55 #804444

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loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote: Sorry, but I'm referring to the sense wires on Shindengen RR units, specifically the circuit used to compensate for voltage drop in the loom.
Now if you have some results of the output battery voltage going over a 14.3v preset when the sense wire is floating, that would be informative.
There is no good engineering design reason to have an independent sense circuit in a regulator.
You're making an unsubstantiated assertion, and I find that it's easier to deal with data than egos.


I'm not making any assertion that isn't well-established fact among people who have actually worked on Kz's and have posted their findings here. Everyone else over the last 20 years have found the same results. If a diametrically opposed result, like the one you were speculating on (apparently without actually doing any tests on a working bike) were found, those discussions would have happened decades ago.

You can take up your claim about there being no reason for a sense line with Kawasaki. The fact is, they put one on most of their regulators, and I see at least one reason possibly more why that would be beneficial... but who cares. The facts are that Kz regulators used on permanent-magnet alternators often (but not always) have a brown sense line connected to a switched 12v source. Look at any Kz550 wiring diagram. Look at any post-1980 Kz650 diagram. Look at any Kz750-four diagram. Look at any Kz1000 diagram. And furthermore, removing that brown wire from that type of regulator lets the full alternator output boil the battery.

The internal operation of the regulator may be of importance to the precision required by Lithium batteries and a discussion on it may help explain why some other type of regulator may or may not be better. But forcing others to bring you up to speed and arguing what has to be pure speculation against long-established fact is wasting everyone's time.


I would argue that you're equally culpable of wasting time by repeating hearsay rather than posting data or circuits.

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 11:24 #804445

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LAST TRY

SWest wrote: Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries?

Z1b1000 1975 Z1b
Opinions expressed by me do not reflect those of the the staff or members
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 11:47 #804446

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weeZee wrote:

old_kaw wrote:

weeZee wrote: OK, and when the sense wire is connected, this voltage is reduced?
The photo posted last week displayed a lower value, with the sense wire connected can you confirm that this value remained below about 14.3 for idle and 4k?


The only lower value than 13.7 volts was when the amp meter showed 0.0 amps, meaning the engine was off. There is a caption above every photo telling the test conditions. Reading comprehension is a good thing.


What I'm asking is simply whether you have a photo showing the voltage coming out of the RR with the sense wire disconnected and the bike at around 4k rpm.
Apologies if I've missed this in the thread, but there appears to be a lot of heat and light. Perhaps you can assist.


If you read post #804427 (again?) , I already posted this info once today. It is posted about 7 comments back. You can see the wire disconnected from the relay on my fluke meter.

It's probably about time for you to dig out your meter and try this testing on your bike. See it first hand.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 12:11 #804448

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weeZee wrote: I would argue that you're equally culpable of wasting time by repeating hearsay rather than posting data or circuits.


You are forcing me and others to waste time repeating the facts since you don't seem to even be able to keep straight the evidence that was presented in this topic that directly disputes your speculation. Feel free to speculate wildly as you have, but once there is solid evidence against it, either drop it or do at least a smidgen of research.

Sorry, but the ship has sailed and old-kaw is at the helm. Read his posts to see where it went.

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 13:09 #804451

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SWest wrote: LAST TRY

SWest wrote: Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries?


To answer the question I potsed directly to the best of my understanding:

Based on some info from this thread, talking to people I work with, as well as talking to the people at Rick's Motorsports (where I bought my special R/R), it seems like it is highly recommended to use a special R/R as lithium batteries (Li-ion & LiFePo) more sensitive to voltage fluctuations than normal lead-acid batteries.

Lithium batteries also do not like to be overcharged which is why I was recommended the special R/R in the first place. If the generator from the motorcycle is "feeding" the battery too much energy, it overheats and goes ka-bloom. The R/R I got from Rick's regulates the (input/output?.. I think input) voltage to a max of like 14.0 +/- 0.2V because the battery I got likes to operate at around 14.0 +/- 0.4V. The battery I bought (Shorai LFX) requires a charging system output of at least 13.1V at idle and 15.2V at max output. So you're stock R/R is probably okay for a Shorai LFX LiFePo battery assuming you don't have any issues elsewhere in your harness.

If you don't feel like risking it, go with a traditional battery.
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Last edit: by dpivas7. Reason: Edited for clarity and accuracy

Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 13:45 #804454

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old_kaw wrote:

weeZee wrote:

old_kaw wrote:

weeZee wrote: OK, and when the sense wire is connected, this voltage is reduced?
The photo posted last week displayed a lower value, with the sense wire connected can you confirm that this value remained below about 14.3 for idle and 4k?


The only lower value than 13.7 volts was when the amp meter showed 0.0 amps, meaning the engine was off. There is a caption above every photo telling the test conditions. Reading comprehension is a good thing.


What I'm asking is simply whether you have a photo showing the voltage coming out of the RR with the sense wire disconnected and the bike at around 4k rpm.
Apologies if I've missed this in the thread, but there appears to be a lot of heat and light. Perhaps you can assist.


If you read post #804427 (again?) , I already posted this info once today. It is posted about 7 comments back. You can see the wire disconnected from the relay on my fluke meter.

It's probably about time for you to dig out your meter and try this testing on your bike. See it first hand.


Well the reason I'm taxing you with queries about your setup is because I have a modern MOSFET RR on my bike and cannot experiment.
I'm trying to estimate the voltage drop from your RR o/p to guess whether it outputs a voltage roughly within spec.
The voltage should rise with RPM, then stabilise at a value. Based on those values I can get a rough idea of what the voltage comparator circuit looks like.

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 13:57 #804455

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dpivas7 wrote:

SWest wrote: LAST TRY

SWest wrote: Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries?


To answer the question I potsed directly to the best of my understanding:

Based on some info from this thread, talking to people I work with, as well as talking to the people at Rick's Motorsports (where I bought my special R/R), it seems like it is highly recommended to use a special R/R as lithium batteries (Li-ion & LiFe-Po) more sensitive to voltage fluctuations than normal lead-acid batteries. This has to do with the way the batteries are constructed - which I do not understand but makes sense in a way. When a lithium battery is fully charged, it likes to operate at a reduced voltage for some reason. This also makes the battery last longer.

Lithium batteries also do not like to be overcharged which is why I was recommended the special R/R in the first place. If the generator from the motorcycle is "feeding" the battery too much energy, it overheats and goes ka-bloom (I think). The R/R I got from Rick's regulates the (input/output?.. I think input but not really sure) voltage to a max of like 14.2V or something like that because the battery I got likes to operate at around 13.7V (WILL CONFIRM when I get home).

However, it seems like there are some other workarounds you can do if you do not want to splurge for a special R/R which runs $100+. Mine was $125. Those workarounds seem to require a higher level understanding of electrical circuits that I, and probably most non-electricians or non-electrical engineers, do not have. I went the "safe" route and spent the money on the R/R to go with my LiFe-Po battery. I am finishing up my engine swap (waiting on some gaskets) and hope to get the bike started this weekend so I will update with what I learn about how it actually works.

If you don't feel like risking it, go with a traditional battery.


In penance for the distractions to this thread, I post some of the LiFePO4 recommendations that I have.
The batteries are apparently sensitive to excessive charging voltage, meaning that the average shunt/series RR is unsuited at a steady output of 14.4v or over.
The iron variant of the lithium battery (the Fe in LiFePO) is considered more forgiving of voltage spikes/ripple.
"Smart" chargers, particularly those with desulphating cycles (square wave pulses) are a no-no. But lithium batteries keep their charge if there's no drain.

It strikes me as odd that branded manufacturers would not put robust filters and control circuitry into the batteries themselves. Perhaps there is a weight/size penalty.

ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/blog/lithiu...-rectifierregulator/

www.rexs-speedshop.com/wp-content/upload...ed-to-Know-Facts.pdf

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 14:39 #804457

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I am runing a LiFePO4 battery on stock hardware (Z1B, separat rectifier/regulator ) with no sence wire for two year now with no probs.
If your Regulator has a sence wire use it, if not who cares.

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 15:10 #804458

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Mods feel free to delete this. I dunno why it is here, or what is going on in life.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 15:19 #804460

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SWest wrote:
Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries?


I my opinion,NO!
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