TOPIC:

weeZee wrote: I seem to remember that the brown voltage sense wire will only ramp up voltage if connected.
People who would boil batteries on old looms would disconnect it.

The regulator uses the brown sense wire to sense system voltage. When the voltage goes up, the regulator reduces output to the battery, and vice versa. Disconnecting it causes the regulator to stop doing anything and full power is output to the battery. Obviously that will boil the battery.

weeZee wrote: I seem to remember that the brown voltage sense wire will only ramp up voltage if connected.
People who would boil batteries on old looms would disconnect it.

This is an obvious typo. I think he meant that the output would ramp up if the brown wire were > disconnected<. Proofreading is a good thing.

The R/R "thinks" the battery voltage is -0- volts if the sense voltage is zero, when the brown wire is disconnected , so it tries to compensate by going to maximum output mode.

Boiling the battery would be the least of your worries, it will also put the stator into melt down mode, and let the smoke out of the wiring harness.

Well, let's not forget, the stator has more current through it when the regulator is shunting...in order to regulate voltage.

loudhvx wrote: Well, let's not forget, the stator has more current through it when the regulator is shunting...in order to regulate voltage.

I'm not quite sure the regulator shunts the entire unused voltage / current through the stator as some seem to think . The stator / wiring would burn up during normal operation if this were the case, since it would never see a drop in current.

I smelled my wiring getting warm after stator replacement. That led to troubleshooting and finding my brown wire running lower than B+ voltages. This was the culprit, since I could jumper it to B+ and make the output voltage drop.

With the relay in circuit, the yellow stator wiring is no longer heating, and B+ is at steady nominal voltage levels.

This sounds like a case for more investigation with a wide-band AC amp meter in line with the yellow wires. Any volunteers? ::

During shunt events, the SCR is directly shorting the stator wire to ground. But SCR's have a significant voltage drop on them, which is why they get so hot. So the voltage on the stator wire drops from about 15v to just a few volts. That allows the stator current to increase since its load has now dropped, but remember, it doesn't spike to a high current immediately because a stator is an inductor, and the current through an inductor cannot change instantaneously (like in a resistor). So the stator has a self-protecting feature against shunt events.

I studied the process when I was designing a Kz voltage regulator that actually worked like the stock one.
The stator signals are viewable here:
s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/GPZAltntrWaves/AlternatorWaveforms.html

Here is a detailed analysis of a shunting regulator design. It is not a fully-mature design as it turned out to cost much more than what you would pay on ebay for a relatively new, but used factory regulator. Normally, I would start the process of reducing parts counts and combing multiple parts into one part. That's where all the time gets spent, making the circuit efficient. It's easy to just throw gobs of parts at a circuit to make it work. The beauty in a design (and where all the work comes in) is when you can pare it down to the bare essentials while maintaining performance.
s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/RegRec/GPZvRegMagnetField.html

I used to have a girlfriend that would over complicate EVERYTHING, then do nothing because it was too much work. LOL

I just took my Fluke AC meter and checked the AC current on one of the yellow wires at the plug and the B+ voltage simultaneously. It does appear that the stator current remains somewhat stable no matter what the sense voltage is. All readings were at about 4K RPM. It's kinda tricky holding a camera and the throttle while my meter is vibrating off onto the floor, at a steady RPM both at the same time.

Battery voltage and current before starting the motor.


I unhooked the wire to the regulator from the relay completely so that it went from normal charging with a fully charged battery, to WFO charging.


This was normal charging values with B+ sense voltage to R/R at about 4K RPM.


13.78VDC was at idle with very low current on stator (aprox 3-4 amps). So in summary, the stator current remains ~ the same no matter what the output voltage is, but varies greatly with RPM (frequency). This doesn't explain why I found my yellow wires heating up with the overcharging I experienced, but since this all happened about 2 years ago memory may be a limiting factor too.

I need to go re-wrap my wiring harness now.

I believe that is basically what I said would happen? That is, it would have more current when shunting, but not a whole lot more due to the self-protecting inductance. By the way, if the meter is not a true RMS meter, it is only estimating the AC current (and voltage), and since we are not dealing with sine waves (when a stator is hooked up to a load and/or regulator), the estimation will be significantly off.

The voltage readings on the scope show the shunting is the SCR actually shorting the stator wire. The few volts seen on the scope are the result of the forward drop on a triggered SCR.

Each shunt event is only a brief moment of shorting of one single stator wire for some portion of a single pulse. The shunt may happen at the beginning of the pulse, or the shunt event can be triggered after some part of the pulse has occurred normally. The scope makes it all pretty clear.

I realize my fluke meter isn't a true RMS meter. I'm not designing a circuit, so accuracy does not matter.

I also looked at your waveforms, You spent a lot of time on that data. Thanks for sharing. I'm curious how you got those waveforms with no probes hooked to the front of the scope? I haven't used my scope in years, but I'm pretty sure it still works.



I wanted to see for myself how the charging system regulates voltage and if the stator current increased or decreased with higher sense voltage producing lower regulator output. And then I did a little "sharing " myself.

BTW I had to design & build a 1 amp DC power supply in order to graduate. I don't remember the specs I was given. I still have and use this from time to time. I like using the LM317 variable voltage regulator chip in the TO -220 package. I have used them on several applications / projects.

So I'm a mechanical engineer so all of this diode/relay/B+ jargon makes me wanna puke

My regulator/rectifier I got from Rick's has 5 wires: 3 for the stator, 1 red (which I think I should connect straight to the positive terminal from what I've gathered), and 1 black that I think connects to the black/yellow wire that goes up to the headlight/main harness.

I don't know what the black/yellow wire does and my brown sense wire from the stock regulator also goes up to the headlight thru the main harness. I could connect the red wire from my new R/R to that, but it sounds like I should connect it straight to the B+. If I'm supposed to connect it to the B+, does there have to be a 30amp fuse that bridges that B+ and the R/R?

It goes to the battery. The ground goes to the frame. If you connect the brown wire to the + the bike won't shut off. I'm now using it for accessories.
Steve
Here's a drawing The Old Kaw Man sent to me in 13

dpivas7 wrote: So I'm a mechanical engineer so all of this diode/relay/B+ jargon makes me wanna puke

My regulator/rectifier I got from Rick's has 5 wires: 3 for the stator, 1 red (which I think I should connect straight to the positive terminal from what I've gathered), and 1 black that I think connects to the black/yellow wire that goes up to the headlight/main harness.<snip>

Puke? I'm sure at this point it is more like "YAWN" . I apologize for hijacking your thread, but at times it seems more like debates as to what the proper methodology or procedures to follow, and a discussion between the group. Much like my EX girlfriend over-complicating EVERYTHING simple, then not doing ANYTHING because it's just too damn complicated. LOL

You still haven't installed it yet? I figured you had it running a week ago when you said you already had a SH-775. Steve's drawing is as clear as mud. It really takes some studying to make sense out of it. You just eliminate the brown sense wire. Tape it up, add a accessory, leave it in the plug whatever you want.

It wires in the same as the old one the black / yellow to black = ground, white /red to red = B+ and the 3 yellow wires are stator AC, the connection order does not matter. Feeding through the main fuse going from memory.

To clarify.. All is wired in the same as the original R/R less the brown wire. Since you have the pigtail, I would try to hook it into any OEM plugs to keep it all clean and dependable. Easy peasy.

old_kaw wrote: ... I'm curious how you got those waveforms with no probes hooked to the front of the scope?

My red probe can be seen plugged into the Ch 1 jack in the photos. Far left edge of the image.