Biquetoast and whoever else....

Oh man, you aint gonna believe this. When i took my bike to smithgpz it had a fouling plug problem. He did his thing with the bike without much of my input and when i got my bike bike i basically *immediately* stored it away for the winter months. So, After the warm weather has arrived I see that it is still fouling plugs (like I've complained about) but I didn't realize everything he did to the bike because of storing the bike as soon as I got it back. My fault. When I took off the tank tonight to do the coil mod I saw I had a Dyna coil but it isn't the coil that was recommended. It is gray, says 2.2 ohms, and has 0404-1 stamped on it. The problem is that it doesn't resemble anything that would work with the coil power mod.
The coil has a very thin black and red wire coming from it. The red wire is attached to the yellow wire going directly to the Newtronic box. The black wire is connected to *two* yellow/red wires...one going to the handlebar area, which i would assume would be a killswitch or key...and the other going to the white wire from the Newtronic box. The Newtronic box has a blue wire that is going to ground. And the Newtronic has a thick black wire that connects to the points area. This doesn't seem like ANYTHING we discussed with the coil mod. Is this correct or absolutely wrong? I'll try to add pics but my pixels might be too high....

Geeze, a 2.2 ohm coil with a Newtronic system. I would have thought that would stress out the Newtronic.

The Newtronic systems I worked on had huge dwell angles in order to be used with 3-ohm, or 4-ohm coils. I don't know the specifics on your system, so I can't say it's wrong, but I would try to find out if Newtronic has a recommended resistance for the coil. (Look for literature directly from Newtronic.)

2.2 ohm may be ok, but it's just a surprise to me.

The "thick black wire" going to the points cover is actually several small wires bundles together, to the optical pickup unit. That is, if it's like the Newtronics I've worked on.

EDIT: I deleted some stuff I wrote based on what was a misunderstanding, on my part, in reading Shawn's post.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2007/03/28 14:58

....The red wire is attached to the yellow wire going directly to the Newtronic box. ....

Ok, this wire can stay as-is. This must be the "signal" wire that effectively replaces the points function. This is how the Newtronic fires the coil.

....The black wire is connected to *two* yellow/red wires...one going to the handlebar area, which i would assume would be a killswitch or key...and the other going to the white wire from the Newtronic box. ....

Ah-hah. These are your power, and the main focus.
The yellow/red going to the handlebar is the "trigger", which will connect to white/86 on the relay. The wires that are currently connected to to that yellow/red will receive the output from the relay.
So, use the yellow wire from the relay to power the coil, *and* to power the Newtronic.

....The Newtronic box has a blue wire that is going to ground. And the Newtronic has a thick black wire that connects to the points area. ....

Yep. Those we will not touch.

Now as for the 2.2 coil, I'll only say this: I know Lou knows his stuff about stuff, and I don't.

And, I have asked two other people in the past that know their stuff to speculate for me which coils to use, and I have drawn these conclusions regarding coils: 5 ohm for points, 3 ohm for Newtronic.

So, since you already have a 3 ohm now, I'd put that 2.2 on eBay.

I hope that helps... stay confident...

EDIT: Edited for technical accuracy...

Post edited by: Biquetoast, at: 2007/03/29 18:32

Sorry, I'm not up to date on Shawn's problems, but am I right in saying he has no spark at all? Since his coil only has one wire, it can't be operating in the manner the Newtronic system intends.

loudhvx wrote:

Sorry, I'm not up to date on Shawn's problems, but am I right in saying he has no spark at all? Since his coil only has one wire, it can't be operating in the manner the Newtronic system intends.

Would you believe I typed a big, thorough response and tried to post it and it got lost. ARG! Stupid laptop touch-pad!

Anyway, in Shawn's post at the top, he is actually describing two wires - a red one and a black one - though it sounds like one black/red wire at first. He goes on to describe where each wire runs...

Also, he *has* spark, but he's fouling plugs all the time. I think that since he has an electronic ignition and a good coil, if we do the power mod he can at least trust the foundation, and then move on to fine-tuning and other adjustments. We can get him there!

Biquetoast wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

Sorry, I'm not up to date on Shawn's problems, but am I right in saying he has no spark at all? Since his coil only has one wire, it can't be operating in the manner the Newtronic system intends.

Would you believe I typed a big, thorough response and tried to post it and it got lost. ARG! Stupid laptop touch-pad!.

... believe it. I hate when that happens! If I know it's going to be a long post, as mine usually are :blush:, I put it into a word program first. If I'm lazy, I'll post after I type a little, then just add to it in several edits.

Biquetoast wrote:

Anyway, in Shawn's post at the top, he is actually describing two wires - a red one and a black one - though it sounds like one black/red wire at first. He goes on to describe where each wire runs....

Ahh, yeah I get it. I was thrown because his diagram (in the other thread) shows one wire to the item marked as "coil".



Biquetoast wrote:

Also, he *has* spark, but he's fouling plugs all the time. I think that since he has an electronic ignition and a good coil, if we do the power mod he can at least trust the foundation, and then move on to fine-tuning and other adjustments. We can get him there!

I agree.

I think you said he has a 3-ohm coil. I also agree he should use that coil as long as he knows it's good.

The only time I had goofy problems with a Newtronic was when the battery voltage was low. He should measure the voltage at the Newtronic's power lead to make sure it stays above 12.5v all the time.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2007/03/28 15:00

That first diagram isn't my current wiring, it was a diagram of what it would look like if I did the coil mod. Sorry about that. I'm getting good voltage from and to the battery. I don't like the black and red wires coming from the dyna. They are VERY thin. Much smaller than the wires from the Newtronic. But, I need instructions brought down to "short bus" level. teachme like I'm a 1st grader:).
Here is my current diagram with the relay. Tell me exactly what to do with each wire from this relay.

Thanks guys...

shawntmartin wrote:

...Tell me exactly what to do with each wire from this relay....

Updated with Newtronic goodness... left column is relay wire color...

blue = 30 = Fused power line to starter solenoid
red = 87a = Unused
yellow = 87 = Acc2, DIRECT connection to coil (where the black wire is now) AND to white wire on Newtronic
white = 86 = Trigger input to relay (connect to yellow/red wire labaled as "to handlebars")
black = 85 = Ground to frame

I'm pretty sure the thing that's confusing you is that the Newtronic and the coil are sharing the yellow/red power line now. By doing the mod, you're "demoting" the current power wire to "trigger", and giving both the coil and the Newtronic their new power wire off the relay.

Now get out in the garage...

EDIT: Edited for technical accuracy...

Post edited by: Biquetoast, at: 2007/03/29 18:35

Now thats the "short bus" version that I needed....
..seriously:blush:

Anyway, the last thing i need to ask is... is it OK to just cut the yellow/red wire going to the handlebars, connect it to the white wire like you said, and then just tape off the cut end that still goes to the handlebars?

And, without causing more confusion.... is the wiring in you explanation going to be exactly the same when the Dyna 3.0 arrives? My diagram above was using the 2.2ohm.

If you read the specifications for the Newtronic you will see that it is made for the stock coil, and you should never use a coil with less resistance than 3ohm in the primary windings. If someone put on a 2,2ohm coil it is the wrong coil for the system. And the working are for the system is 9-18 volts. Below, and over that voltage the system will stop working to protect itself, so I have a hard time understanding the need for more power to the coil and the system it self. If the charging system, the battery and the wiring is good, there should not be any problem.

Btw, what makes you so convinced that the fouling plugs are caused by a weak spark? Normally an electronic ignition system will provide a stronger spark itself compared to a points ignition. And when working properly, the fuel will burn more completely, reducing the fuel consumption. And the spark plugs will be cleaner. At least that was the result when I installed a Boyer Brandsen system on my 400 twin. And I have never done a "coil wiring" mod. The only problem I have had with fouling plugs was caused by worn carbs, especially the needle jets and jet needles. If they are worn there are no tuning and mods in the world that can fix it, other than replacing those parts in the carbs. And the reason they wear out faster these days than before are some of the additives, and lack of lubricatin components, that is used in modern fuel. This has been noticed by several meachanics in England, and also by Ron Ayers Motorsport:

ronayers.com

The best thing you can do for your bike is to get the Newtronic system properly installed, with the correct coil, and then have it tested on a Dyno bench. That will give you an accurate answer to where your problem is.

Post edited by: steell, at: 2007/03/29 07:56

ibsen22000 wrote:

...If the... wiring is good, there should not be any problem....

Exactly. The whole point of doing this mod is that we do not trust the state of the wiring. This is a quick, relatively easy (easier than re-doing the harness) way to assure good, steady, reliable power to the coil; and in Shawn's and my case, to the Newtronic as well.

Ivar, I know your wiring is fine, you are a meticulous maintainer of you bike. But I have seen this mod's results on my own bikes with my own eyes. In at least one case, taking my bike from blackened plugs to tan plugs with no other change. Of course, since then, I have since done much work to troubleshoot areas of the harness that suffer from corrosion, etc., that may have led to the weak spark in the first place. And to be clear, Shawn, you should, too. Think of the coil-power mod as a heart stint. You still have some bad arteries, but this gets the blood where it needs to go *now*...

To answer why he thinks he needs to do this: I think *I* am the one who suggested the mod to Shawn to help solve the fouling plugs. I read his posts and frustration and saw that he is exactly where I was in both his bike's state and mindset. The frustration of not knowing what else to do, etc.

Hey, the truth is, it might not *solve* the problem, but at least after doing it, I can be more certain he is getting full spark and that any further troubleshooting is almost certain to be the carbs... and an endless search more jets that are no longer manufactured... :blink:

Ibsen22000,
I don't think its the carbs. I got these carbs from wiredgeorge, and they were cleaned. I put in a new carb rebuild kit, the needles and diaphrams are in great shape. They were sync'd, floats set, and are tuned to the stock settings. I have an electronic ignition, foam pods, and a 2-1 exhaust. With the stock carb setting I'm fouling plugs quick. I think its the spark.

Biquetoast,
Is the "short bus" version of the diagram going to be exactly the same when I get the 3.0? It won't have the red and black wires so I may ask for another set of directions....
Also, any chance of this 2.2 ohm coil hurting the Newtronic? If so,I'm done. I'm not shelling out another few hundred for that....

Post edited by: shawntmartin, at: 2007/03/29 11:49