piston rings

jackleberry wrote:

bountyhunter wrote: The "Seafoam Soak" will definitely remove a ton of built up carbon. How I did it:

1) Use the vacuum line between the carb holders with a T fitting and vacuum line.

2) Use some small vise grip pliers to squeeze the vac tube so only a little air gets by,

3) Start engine heat up. Use the line to draw seafoam slowly into the engine adding a little over time.

4) For the final, release the pliers clamp which will suck up all the seafoam quickly into the engine and stall it. Let it sit for about 20 minutes to work, then restart and run until the black smoke stops coming out the exhaust. You won't believe how much burned on carbon it will blow out.

Yeah, but are you basing your statement on the amount of smoke you made, or on actually LOOKING in the combustion chamber?

It's easy to make smoke....

Not that much smoke.

jackleberry wrote:

blink543 wrote: I probably should torque it but I am planning on taking off the top to swap it with a different kz650 top because I snapped the tach holder. I'll have to look and see what's going on. How is it that rings are stuck tho? I thought they weren't supposed to move?

But if you don't torque it now and recheck the compression, then you won't know whether or not you need to worry about replacing the rings when you have it apart...

The rings are split. Basically spring loaded. They ride in a grove in the piston. Carbon buildup and rust can cause them to remain stuck in a closed/pinched position, rather than pressing outward with their full force against the cylinder wall. This allows combustion gasses to bypass the rings (blowby) and enter the crankcase (one symptom being low compression). If it's the oil rings that are stuck, then the motor will also pump oil from the crankcase into the combustion chamber and burn it... This causes more carbon/gunk buildup and further sticks the rings.

There are also usually some oil ports in the piston wall under the oil rings which can get clogged with gunk as well. The only way to get this stuff out is to either remove the pistons and clean them, or to run some kind of solvent (seafoam) through the crankcase (for many many miles).

If you do take the pistons out and try to clean them, you'll see how difficult/impossible it is to remove carbon buildup with anything other than physical abrasion.

Some large percentage of the time, the problem is just this buildup, but it would be kind of silly to take the pistons out and clean them without replacing the rings while you're there....

The rings and the cylinders also wear, but fairly slowly when not abused. Rings can also fail by breaking or loosing their springiness (from overheating).

So I did the compression test on the 4th cylinder when hot and I got like 135 but I keep noticing an oil ring around where the spark plug seats. When I take it out there's a wet oil ring left there. So obviously there's oil getting in there. And the second thing I noticed is there's air bubbling out the the left side of the engine where the bottom head gasket is. But only on that side I've noticed. Here's some pics of what I'm talking about.

Sometimes retouruing the head will fix the oil leak on the block/crankcase, otherwise new O rings with a rebuild. Do it cold by the FSM sequence, in several stages if you need. You might be surprised how much they relax over the years.

I'd put some more miles on it,on bikes left standing for time the rings can get gummed up and compression pressures can increase just with hard use.

Worst case you need a rebore and top end rebuild, if you can tolerate some smoke and a minor oil leak and it will continue running like that for a loooong time.

bountyhunter wrote:

jackleberry wrote:

bountyhunter wrote: The "Seafoam Soak" will definitely remove a ton of built up carbon. How I did it:

1) Use the vacuum line between the carb holders with a T fitting and vacuum line.

2) Use some small vise grip pliers to squeeze the vac tube so only a little air gets by,

3) Start engine heat up. Use the line to draw seafoam slowly into the engine adding a little over time.

4) For the final, release the pliers clamp which will suck up all the seafoam quickly into the engine and stall it. Let it sit for about 20 minutes to work, then restart and run until the black smoke stops coming out the exhaust. You won't believe how much burned on carbon it will blow out.

Yeah, but are you basing your statement on the amount of smoke you made, or on actually LOOKING in the combustion chamber?

It's easy to make smoke....

Not that much smoke.

Yes that much. Every time I've run Seafoam through an engine in the prescribed method I got a smoke screen. That's because Seafoam has oil in it that burns. It's not because it's actually removing the carbon from the piston crowns. You can see by looking in the sparkplug hole (or better yet with a borescope) that all the carbon is still in there. IMHO the worst way to use any of these products is to pour them in the intake of a running motor--just burns it up before it has a chance to do anything.

blink543 wrote:

jackleberry wrote:

blink543 wrote: I probably should torque it but I am planning on taking off the top to swap it with a different kz650 top because I snapped the tach holder. I'll have to look and see what's going on. How is it that rings are stuck tho? I thought they weren't supposed to move?

But if you don't torque it now and recheck the compression, then you won't know whether or not you need to worry about replacing the rings when you have it apart...

The rings are split. Basically spring loaded. They ride in a grove in the piston. Carbon buildup and rust can cause them to remain stuck in a closed/pinched position, rather than pressing outward with their full force against the cylinder wall. This allows combustion gasses to bypass the rings (blowby) and enter the crankcase (one symptom being low compression). If it's the oil rings that are stuck, then the motor will also pump oil from the crankcase into the combustion chamber and burn it... This causes more carbon/gunk buildup and further sticks the rings.

There are also usually some oil ports in the piston wall under the oil rings which can get clogged with gunk as well. The only way to get this stuff out is to either remove the pistons and clean them, or to run some kind of solvent (seafoam) through the crankcase (for many many miles).

If you do take the pistons out and try to clean them, you'll see how difficult/impossible it is to remove carbon buildup with anything other than physical abrasion.

Some large percentage of the time, the problem is just this buildup, but it would be kind of silly to take the pistons out and clean them without replacing the rings while you're there....

The rings and the cylinders also wear, but fairly slowly when not abused. Rings can also fail by breaking or loosing their springiness (from overheating).

So I did the compression test on the 4th cylinder when hot and I got like 135 but I keep noticing an oil ring around where the spark plug seats. When I take it out there's a wet oil ring left there. So obviously there's oil getting in there. And the second thing I noticed is there's air bubbling out the the left side of the engine where the bottom head gasket is. But only on that side I've noticed. Here's some pics of what I'm talking about.

What do you mean by "bottom head gasket"? Do you mean the cylinder base gasket?

Just ride the thing man. The motor burning a little oil isn't going to ruin anything else. Retorque your head, set your cam chain, set your valves, set your carbs up right, regular oil changes. Just like everyone else said. It'll keep the bike happy and you happy.

jackleberry wrote:

blink543 wrote:

jackleberry wrote:

blink543 wrote: I probably should torque it but I am planning on taking off the top to swap it with a different kz650 top because I snapped the tach holder. I'll have to look and see what's going on. How is it that rings are stuck tho? I thought they weren't supposed to move?

But if you don't torque it now and recheck the compression, then you won't know whether or not you need to worry about replacing the rings when you have it apart...

The rings are split. Basically spring loaded. They ride in a grove in the piston. Carbon buildup and rust can cause them to remain stuck in a closed/pinched position, rather than pressing outward with their full force against the cylinder wall. This allows combustion gasses to bypass the rings (blowby) and enter the crankcase (one symptom being low compression). If it's the oil rings that are stuck, then the motor will also pump oil from the crankcase into the combustion chamber and burn it... This causes more carbon/gunk buildup and further sticks the rings.

There are also usually some oil ports in the piston wall under the oil rings which can get clogged with gunk as well. The only way to get this stuff out is to either remove the pistons and clean them, or to run some kind of solvent (seafoam) through the crankcase (for many many miles).

If you do take the pistons out and try to clean them, you'll see how difficult/impossible it is to remove carbon buildup with anything other than physical abrasion.

Some large percentage of the time, the problem is just this buildup, but it would be kind of silly to take the pistons out and clean them without replacing the rings while you're there....

The rings and the cylinders also wear, but fairly slowly when not abused. Rings can also fail by breaking or loosing their springiness (from overheating).

So I did the compression test on the 4th cylinder when hot and I got like 135 but I keep noticing an oil ring around where the spark plug seats. When I take it out there's a wet oil ring left there. So obviously there's oil getting in there. And the second thing I noticed is there's air bubbling out the the left side of the engine where the bottom head gasket is. But only on that side I've noticed. Here's some pics of what I'm talking about.

What do you mean by "bottom head gasket"? Do you mean the cylinder base gasket?

The gasket that goes around the head piece. The part that has the valves inside. That gasket

RandomKZ650 wrote: Just ride the thing man. The motor burning a little oil isn't going to ruin anything else. Retorque your head, set your cam chain, set your valves, set your carbs up right, regular oil changes. Just like everyone else said. It'll keep the bike happy and you happy.

To me it's not a little. I add about an oz every couple or rides

jackleberry wrote:

bountyhunter wrote:

jackleberry wrote:

bountyhunter wrote: The "Seafoam Soak" will definitely remove a ton of built up carbon. How I did it:

1) Use the vacuum line between the carb holders with a T fitting and vacuum line.

2) Use some small vise grip pliers to squeeze the vac tube so only a little air gets by,

3) Start engine heat up. Use the line to draw seafoam slowly into the engine adding a little over time.

4) For the final, release the pliers clamp which will suck up all the seafoam quickly into the engine and stall it. Let it sit for about 20 minutes to work, then restart and run until the black smoke stops coming out the exhaust. You won't believe how much burned on carbon it will blow out.

Yeah, but are you basing your statement on the amount of smoke you made, or on actually LOOKING in the combustion chamber?

It's easy to make smoke....

Not that much smoke.

Yes that much. Every time I've run Seafoam through an engine in the prescribed method I got a smoke screen. That's because Seafoam has oil in it that burns. It's not because it's actually removing the carbon from the piston crowns. You can see by looking in the sparkplug hole (or better yet with a borescope) that all the carbon is still in there. IMHO the worst way to use any of these products is to pour them in the intake of a running motor--just burns it up before it has a chance to do anything.

I agree that sounds like a wasteful idea.how about putting penetrating fluid in my cylinders and letting it sit?

blink543 wrote:

jackleberry wrote:

bountyhunter wrote:

jackleberry wrote:

bountyhunter wrote: The "Seafoam Soak" will definitely remove a ton of built up carbon. How I did it:

1) Use the vacuum line between the carb holders with a T fitting and vacuum line.

2) Use some small vise grip pliers to squeeze the vac tube so only a little air gets by,

3) Start engine heat up. Use the line to draw seafoam slowly into the engine adding a little over time.

4) For the final, release the pliers clamp which will suck up all the seafoam quickly into the engine and stall it. Let it sit for about 20 minutes to work, then restart and run until the black smoke stops coming out the exhaust. You won't believe how much burned on carbon it will blow out.

Yeah, but are you basing your statement on the amount of smoke you made, or on actually LOOKING in the combustion chamber?

It's easy to make smoke....

Not that much smoke.

Yes that much. Every time I've run Seafoam through an engine in the prescribed method I got a smoke screen. That's because Seafoam has oil in it that burns. It's not because it's actually removing the carbon from the piston crowns. You can see by looking in the sparkplug hole (or better yet with a borescope) that all the carbon is still in there. IMHO the worst way to use any of these products is to pour them in the intake of a running motor--just burns it up before it has a chance to do anything.

I agree that sounds like a wasteful idea.how about putting penetrating fluid in my cylinders and letting it sit?

Feel free to try it. This method has three problems though:

1) It takes a long time to work (days, weeks, months) during which your motorcycle is un-ridable.
2) You have to constantly replenish the solvent.
3) The solvent drains into the crankcase (so during/after this kind of treatment you need to remove all the contaminated oil)

Favorite snake oils for this use are seafoam, acetone + ATF, and MMO.

It's also messy, a bother, and has the potential to hydrolock the motor if you forget to clear out the cylinders before cranking it.

If the motor was is seized then the cylinder soak is your only option.

But since it runs, I would recommend just adding seafoam or MMO to the oil and continuing to ride it (while carefully tracking your oil consumption over the following months).

jackleberry wrote:

blink543 wrote:

jackleberry wrote:

bountyhunter wrote:

jackleberry wrote:

bountyhunter wrote: The "Seafoam Soak" will definitely remove a ton of built up carbon. How I did it:

1) Use the vacuum line between the carb holders with a T fitting and vacuum line.

2) Use some small vise grip pliers to squeeze the vac tube so only a little air gets by,

3) Start engine heat up. Use the line to draw seafoam slowly into the engine adding a little over time.

4) For the final, release the pliers clamp which will suck up all the seafoam quickly into the engine and stall it. Let it sit for about 20 minutes to work, then restart and run until the black smoke stops coming out the exhaust. You won't believe how much burned on carbon it will blow out.

Yeah, but are you basing your statement on the amount of smoke you made, or on actually LOOKING in the combustion chamber?

It's easy to make smoke....

Not that much smoke.

Yes that much. Every time I've run Seafoam through an engine in the prescribed method I got a smoke screen. That's because Seafoam has oil in it that burns. It's not because it's actually removing the carbon from the piston crowns. You can see by looking in the sparkplug hole (or better yet with a borescope) that all the carbon is still in there. IMHO the worst way to use any of these products is to pour them in the intake of a running motor--just burns it up before it has a chance to do anything.

I agree that sounds like a wasteful idea.how about putting penetrating fluid in my cylinders and letting it sit?

Feel free to try it. This method has three problems though:

1) It takes a long time to work (days, weeks, months) during which your motorcycle is un-ridable.
2) You have to constantly replenish the solvent.
3) The solvent drains into the crankcase (so during/after this kind of treatment you need to remove all the contaminated oil)

Favorite snake oils for this use are seafoam, acetone + ATF, and MMO.

It's also messy, a bother, and has the potential to hydrolock the motor if you forget to clear out the cylinders before cranking it.

If the motor was is seized then the cylinder soak is your only option.

But since it runs, I would recommend just adding seafoam or MMO to the oil and continuing to ride it (while carefully tracking your oil consumption over the following months).

Can u write out those abbreviations? Thank u

ATF = automatic transmission fluid (a very high detergent oil)
MMO = marvel mystery oil (alcohol and wintergreen oil?)