Header pics

The Gemini I got off Ebay for my Gpz550 project.

Nice pipe. can u take a string and measure the primary and tail lengths . Also the diameters, and post the #'s for us. How much do they sell for?

JMKZHI wrote:

Jardines test fitted.

.

Do you have a website for those pipes?

Thanks!
FlickeredOne

Mark,
It's called "SONIC TUNING"
And no, just the outer pipes meet up. Until the muffler starts, it's just a big tube.
The basics,,sound and gas move at different speeds.
Sound is a constant, gas is not.
Have that so far ?
When the "SOUND" wave bounces back in the pipe , it reaches the exhaust port at the right time to keep from sucking spent gases into the chamber OR sucking fresh mixture into the pipe during overlap.
Kind of like a sonic 1 way valve at the exhaust port.
It DOES NOT work all the time. Just when the pipe and cams are working together.
The rest of the time, it's like any other pipe.
BUT when it works,It works VERY well.

MDawnz1 wrote:

Mark,
It's called "SONIC TUNING"
And no, just the outer pipes meet up. Until the muffler starts, it's just a big tube.
The basics,,sound and gas move at different speeds.
Sound is a constant, gas is not.
Have that so far ?
When the "SOUND" wave bounces back in the pipe , it reaches the exhaust port at the right time to keep from sucking spent gases into the chamber OR sucking fresh mixture into the pipe during overlap.
Kind of like a sonic 1 way valve at the exhaust port.
It DOES NOT work all the time. Just when the pipe and cams are working together.
The rest of the time, it's like any other pipe.
BUT when it works,It works VERY well.

I'd like to know how it works in detail. INFINITE detail. What kindof special glasses do I need to see the sound waving back at me? Help me out a little here. What do we really know about how this stuff works? When all we know is it works between idle and redline, it's the sound waves, it sounds cool, but where is it? There MUST be more. Not the computer program but the part where I can bend something, cut something, hammer on it a little. You know, Cave Man style where I can grin and show my yellow tooth once in a while. But is it really that complex, that in the dark, that hit and miss? If I can tune a pipe will they come and lock me up? Or just quit picking up my garbage. Alot of this exhaust stuff made by reputable companies is in my opinion, junk. I got a 1500 vulcan I'm taking out the motor on that has a vance pipe and it sounds like crap. When a pipe helps power is it a freak accident at the bender? I don't know why with the sound wave tracks, that one pipe wouldn't noticeably increase output over another. And yet I have not heard anyone say anything about which ones except the same old wise tale of 'It's combinations". I'm so sick of hearing that. Who's dumb enough to put a quadrajet on a lawnmower in the first place? We the people (sorry ob my turn) need to be treated like we have one upstairs. And we got a couple downstairs. So put my hands to work in the shop and not holding my head covering my ears. NO im not drunk and not high and not mad. Just look at it like I cut in and passed the combinations biker squad with my knew pipe and tee shirt that reads combo's suck on the back. So put something in my pipe that I can smoke peeps. I ran into wireman the other day at the scrap yard unloading a pickup box full of carbs ranging from 55 to 100mm, he was asking the metal guys how late they were open, cuz a load of oversize camshafts was on the way. He was talking trade for raw steel, something about a 600lb frame and a howitzer on the back. I didnt catch all that but I'm sure he knows what he's planning. Next stop welding rods.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of trial and error involved in finding the magic pipe. There are computer programs that can give u a starting point. But u still have to put it on the dyno and make length and diameter changes to perfect it.
A 4 into 1 pipe basically will enhance the top 3000 or 4000 rpms and will have a week torque spot just below that. A 4-2-1 will help fill that week spot and loose a bit on the top end.
I know u don’t want to here this but, just like any other part u need to work them on the dyno to find the combo that compliments each other.
Every part is a compromise. Your cams, pipe, carbs,and porting, will only work there best at a certain rpm range.
So if u want perfection it starts with an educated guess and then its trial and error.
Also just like the exht has wave tuning, so does the intake track.
One reason i started this thread is to find out what range of pipe specs seem to work, wich specs are most popular, and weather the big name pipes have anything in common.
I know the racers back in the day would use dif pipes for dif road courses. as u change the pipe specs u can only change the rpm that it works well at, a small amount, like moving the curve up and down a couple hundred rpms.

nads.com wrote:

MDawnz1 wrote:
nads.com wrote:
MDawnz1
When the "SOUND" wave bounces back in the pipe , it reaches the exhaust port at the right time to keep from sucking spent gases into the chamber OR sucking fresh mixture into the pipe during overlap.
Kind of like a sonic 1 way valve at the exhaust port.
It DOES NOT work all the time. Just when the pipe and cams are working together.
The rest of the time, it's like any other pipe.
BUT when it works, It works VERY well.

I'd like to know how it works in detail. INFINITE detail. What kind of special glasses do I need to see the sound waving back at me? Help me out a little here. [/quote]

Just like MDawnz1 says, a negative wave will follow the exht out and when the intake and exht valve are open together during overlap, this neg wave will pull the intake into the cyl before the piston has stated moving downward. this pre charges the cyl. This is often called being” ON THE PIPE” but every neg wave is followed by a pos wave. when the pos wave hits it will travel right through the carb , bringing with it, spend ext waste. Now when the piston pulls the next charge in ,it is bringing fresh fuel, and, an oxygen depleted exht waste with it. the result is a rich mix. this is where u see the flat spot in the toque curve just below the pipes sweet spot. and the wider the cams duration the more forgiving it will be to pipe choice, since there is a larger duration window to get a neg wave to hit. So u see ,parts must work together. The very same thing happens on the intake side. If the intake track length is right it will charge the cyl with a neg wave. as the valve opens bbdc.
There is lots of math avail to figure out the exht length. but in the end it is just a starting point. But then again, if u are not racing does everything need to be perfect?
I think the first step is a trip to the dyno. Once u get a base line u can measure the changes from there.

Mark

Just wanted a chance to state, my point of view.

Maybe the whole answer, is simpler then us? You can dyno tune a pipe for a motor. You may get big dyno numbers. The only thing that really matters, is how it runs? (street, track,etc.)

I'm not trying to be a "smart ass" with my answer!

Theres a big differenace between, math, dyno and when the rubber hits the road. Everyone seems to get hung up, on how a pipe looks, sounds or the style, what lines it has.

It would be very easy to build a pipe for a motor, that only ran at one RPM, all the time, and every time.

In real life, we all have different riding styles and different RPM needs.

Not very many, will ever be able to make it, to the dyno.
Everyone would love the chance.

So the question is, what can the average guy do? How can the average guy, gain performance, to meet his needs? (age old question)

Heres my answer:

I would not go out and blow $500 or $600 on a new chrome pipe. It may look cool, but it may not meet my needs.
Forget how they sound, forget everything you've heard.

I am going to sick with what I said, in the begining. Go out and buy every, beat up, dented up, unwanted Z1 pipe you can (cheap) Get your friends to collect them. Try a different one every week. When you get down to about the most beatup, uglyest pipe, it will most likely, work the best. Go by the seat of the, "pants power". You will notice it, in your riding style and RPM needs. Maybe you just have to do, the road tests, if you can't afford the dyno tests. Give all your friends a chance to try something different, it can be fun.

Mark, I know it's hard, because of your wide swingarm. Twist, bend, tape, whatever it takes, for a short road test. Once you find a tube size or collector size, that works for you. Then buy a new one or a better, used one. You can be surpised, by the differanace a good pipe makes.

Some people get lost in the world of sound waves, pulses and things you can't even see.(might be their job?)
But for an average guy, maybe theres only two choices.

Buy a cool looking pipe or do your own roadtests! One way, you can throw money at it or the other. You put on your happy face, work on your bike for alittle while, then roadtest! It's win, win! You look for performance, and no ones in your face, cool deal............

PS - If you get out of it, what you put into it? Then put your heart into it, and see what you get?

If they made the perfect pipe, what would it look like?
Would it be tuned for every possible RPM or like 1's, 10's, 100's or 1000's. But for us all, the hunt goes on!

kzz1p wrote:

y54w

looks like wheelwell header for a small block chevy! :laugh:

PLUMMEN wrote:

kzz1p wrote:

y54w

looks like wheelwell header for a small block chevy! :laugh:

Now That's funny,,,,,,,,and true .

i try tune a bike to work as well as it can with what you have to work with i have access to a fantastic dyno set-up here at college but i'm limited to how much i can use it and also i only have so many carb pipe and engine combo's to work with if i had an unlimited budget and a supply of pipes and carbs and engine sizes and types i could maybe spend the next 5 years trying to find that perfect combo but i can't do that. what works good with one set-up will not produce with another bigger combo so what i think you have to do is pick some set-up and try to make it work as good as you can then if you hit the lotto and have un limited time and money go crazy and build ten different engines and buy a dyno and get pipes and carbs from every different supplier and go crazy making and recording changes and after every hundred dyno pulls if nothing breaks you then can freshen up these engines and do it all over again because the engine was not using the air in the same way as new so your numbers would be off. you see what i'm saying work with what you have or buy the pipe you lust after and make your carbs fit that combo just when you have the carb pipe thing all figured out then start changing camshafts and do it all over again. this kind of stuff can make you crazy and if there was an easy answer the major bike manufactur's would have found it by now. and they would be able to use the same pipe year to year.

To me, it would make sense to plan the build first then buy the parts. Providing u are starting a whole new build. This way u would purchase each part for a specific rpm range, and riding style. in the end u would have parts that generally work together.
With a motor that is already built. all u can do is decide where it likes to run and continue that path with future parts purchases, or start collecting parts that will get u were u want to go.
as far as trying every pipe under the sun? I don’t think there is going to be a huge dif from pipe to pipe unless u take 1 from each end of the spectrum. shot large primaries VS long narrow primaries.
I am interested in collecting data so i can make educated guesses without buying and trying every pipe out there.
personally i think my combo is fine. but in the interest of playing around , i will always try dif things. If i wanted a huge gain i would need a new bike. lets face it these old girls are dog slow compared to a new zx10.