- Posts: 61
- Thank you received: 3
JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I KNEW IT ALL....LOL OIL. OIL
- edspring1
- Topic Author
- Offline
- User
I have been around motors my whole life. Mainly automotive but none the less. I was just talking to a buddy of mine last week. He told me he took his Pro Street Dart back to the engine builders [30 yrs. expierence] for the break in tune up. So he calls the builder when he was told to, and finds out the BILLETT cam has a wiped lobe? Total 4 hrs. run time and it has a wiped lobe? It was a brand new BILLETT cam kit. Matching springs, etc. Anyway the builder replaces the cam, adjusts everything else timing, advance, valve clearance [solid lifter] etc. So my buddy calls again as directed and the builder tells him YUP the car was done. BUT...if you would have called 1 hour earlier I would have told you to come pick it up, but in that hours time the replacement cam has wiped out 2 lobes ? WDF? The builder calls the cam mfg. and finds out that recently the EPA has made all oil mfgs. to remove ZINC from their oils. IT appears that ZINC is a break in protectant that allows NEW surfaces to mate/wear in. If you have anything other than a roller your at a very high risk. Most rings are made with MOLY or some other break in protectant, so your cool there. BUT if you have solid, hydraulic, flat tappett lifters. Well your either very lucky or screwed. Its been a very long time since I have been in the local speed shops. Its to my understanding that any good speed shop will offer BREAK IN oils. I have also heard that Desiel oils still have ZINC in them. I just can't believe I haven't read about this somewhere. And I thought I knew it all.....LOL
So if you have that spare engine sitting or just put cams in your bike. I would atleast look into this B4 its too late. And by the way....YES break in lube was used in both cam installations. So much for break in lube! I hope this helps someone, I just can't believe it has been kept a secret from me....LOL
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- timebomb33
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 4288
- Thank you received: 10
1973 z1 2-1974z1-a,2-1975z1-b dragbikes1015cc+1393cc, 1977kz1000,1978kz1000,1981kz1000j, 1997 zx-11, 2000 z12r,1428turbo nitrous pro-mod and a shit load of parts thats all for now leader sask.,CANADA
I THINK MY POWERBAND BROKE
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- baldy110
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 2272
- Thank you received: 512
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 650ed
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 15344
- Thank you received: 2829
Our government, in an effort to protect emissions systems on cars, mandated that oil companies change their formula for auto oil back in the 2004 timeframe. Zinc (Zinc Dialkydithiophosphate or ZDDP or ZDP) levels were lowered (or removed) in response to the American Petroleum Institute (API) SM and International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) GF-4 (introduced in January 2004) oil specifications. The action was driven by original equipment manufacturers (OEM) based on the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) mandate that emissions reduction systems needed to function for a specific period of time without failing. OEMs pushed to remove anything in motor oils that could potentially harm emissions reduction systems.
However, motorcycle oil and racing oil can still contain effective levels of ZDDP. Personally, I switched away from Castrol GTX when its formula changed and started using Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40 oil. Notice in the chart below that it has double the ZDDP level as regular Mobil 1 car oil and levels higher than the good old GTX formula (1600 vs. 1200) before GTX removed ZDDP.
Mobil Q and A
Chart
If you look at Castrols’s answer to Question #2 in the following link you’ll see “Lower levels of zinc are a problem for owners of older vehicles….. As current oils in market today were "improved" for current standards REMOVAL of certain additives, zinc among them, was required….. Castrol is responding to this problem and after some extensive engineering will be able to offer solutions and information.†This answer doesn’t give me confidence in their product for my bike.
Castrol Q and A
I’m sure the Mobil 1 Racing isn’t the only oil with a high enough level of zinc, but when looking this stuff up on the internet I became very aware that most of the charts that compare different products are so old they don’t reflect current formulas. I would highly recommend that anyone deciding which oil to use take time to visit the oil companies’ sites (such as the Mobil and Castrol above) to get the current formula information. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- bountyhunter
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 7246
- Thank you received: 337
You can buy racing oil if you want high zinc levels.
You can also buy STP Oil treatment which is 5% zinc compounds.
www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/a.../stpoiltreatment.pdf
I suspect the other popular oil additives have zinc in them as well, but I haven't checked their sheets.
1979 KZ-750 Twin
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- BSKZ650
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 2064
- Thank you received: 14
On another note, there is a lot of metal floating in that engine, it is going to need to be torn down and completely cleaned, the bearings by now are shot, since the amount of metal has damaged them.
I have got the T shirt several times on flat cams,, not fun
77 kz650, owned for over 25 years
77 ltd1000, current rider
76 kz900, just waiting
73 z1,, gonna restore this one
piglet, leggero harley davidson
SR, Ride captian, S.E.Texas Patriot Guard Riders.. AKA KawaBob
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- edspring1
- Topic Author
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 61
- Thank you received: 3
I DON'T KNOW OF ANY MOTORCYCLE THATS 'DOESN'T' USE THE SOLID OR FLAT TAPPETT TYPE OF CAMSHAFT/LIFTERS OTHER THAN HARLEY'S. BTW... THE BUILDER DID IN DEED DROP THE PAN, REMOVE AND REPLACE THE OIL PUMP AND SCREEN, REMOVED A FEW BEARING CAPS AND CHECKED THE BEARINGS. AS WELL AS CUT OPEN THE ORIGINAL FILTER FOR INSPECTION. AT THE TIME THE ENGINE WAS BEING BUILT THE SPRINGS WERE CHECKED AT INSTALLATION HEIGHT FOR CORRECT PRESSURE AND THEN INSTALLED AT THE CORRECT HEIGHT. THIS PROBLEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUILDER/USER ERROR. AFTER USEING THE BREAK IN OIL SO FAR THE MOTOR HAS A TOTAL OF 20 HRS. STREET TIME. NO PROBLEMS THUS FAR. DO 'NOT' MAKE THE MISTAKE OF PUTTING OFF THE SHELF OIL IN YOUR FRESH MOTOR IS MY SUGGESTION. THERE IS SIMPLY TOO MUCH INFO OUT THERE TELLING YOU THE CONTRARY.
I HOPE THIS HELPS !
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- N0NB
- Offline
- User
- Blue handles better
Castrol Act>evo X–tra 4T with Trizone Technology is a premium quality part synthetic 4–stroke engine oil. It is specially formulated to protect your bike's engine against the build up of harmful deposits even when you work your bike hard — on the open road or in dense city traffic.
How much of that is advertising hype is a good question. What they do show is that it has an API SG rating a Zinc content of 0.113% of wt. While that is probably less than break-in oil, it sounds like it's much more than what is in the SM car oils.
The stuff isn't cheap, $5.99/Lt or about $22 per 4Lt jug. Yet, I figure my old KZs are worth it.
Nate
Nates vintage bike axiom: Riding is the reward for time spent wrenching.
Murphys corollary: Wrenching is the result of time spent riding.
1979 KZ650 (Complete!)
1979 KZ650 SR (Sold!)
1979 KL250 (For sale)
1994 Bayou 400 (four wheel peel )
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- H2RICK
- Offline
- User
- Is this a fun bike, or what!!!
- Posts: 662
- Thank you received: 1
www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
There was also a great thread on the effects of modern oils with no/low zinc levels used in old Brit bikes....but I've got to do some more looking to find the website for that one.
Maybe someone else on here has that address ???
KZ650C2 Stock/mint. Goes by "Ace".
H2A Built from a genuine basket case. Yes,it's a hot rod.
GT550A Stock/mint. Pleasant stroker.
2006 Bandit 1200S for easy LD rapid transit
Various H2 projects in the wings.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- bountyhunter
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 7246
- Thank you received: 337
I had to overhaul my KZ 750 engine last year. I used a 50-50 blend of STP and Valvoline regular oil to paint everything up during assembly and loaded the top end (lifters and cams) with that same blend. The STP is very sticky and keeps it from draining off, it also apparrently is dosed with zinc compounds according to its ingredients list.
No problems.
1979 KZ-750 Twin
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- bountyhunter
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 7246
- Thank you received: 337
I am now using Castrol Act>Evo X-tra 4T motorcycle oil. According to the product data sheet it is billed as:
Castrol Act>evo X–tra 4T with Trizone Technology is a premium quality part synthetic 4–stroke engine oil. It is specially formulated to protect your bike's engine against the build up of harmful deposits even when you work your bike hard — on the open road or in dense city traffic.
How much of that is advertising hype is a good question. What they do show is that it has an API SG rating a Zinc content of 0.113% of wt. While that is probably less than break-in oil, it sounds like it's much more than what is in the SM car oils.
The stuff isn't cheap, $5.99/Lt or about $22 per 4Lt jug. Yet, I figure my old KZs are worth it.
If my math floats. 0.113% is equal to about 1130 ppm (parts per million). The info I have heard and read said the "sweet spot" for zinc levels is around 1500 - 1600 ppm. If you go higher, you can cause deposits in the combustion chamber so more isn't always better. Much lower and you start to lose wear protection. I think modern car oils are in the 800 - 1000 range (?) to prevent harming the cat converter. Racing oils are higher towards the 1500 - 1600 range.
1979 KZ-750 Twin
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 650ed
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 15344
- Thank you received: 2829
Yes, actually the max allowed for modern passenger car oils is 800 but many of the oil companies dropped it to 0. Some of these companies are "substituting molybdenum disulfide, which lowers friction and improves gas mileage. It also causes problems for people with wet clutches, that is most motorcycles." (Reference:H2RICK's link). Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.