JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I KNEW IT ALL....LOL OIL. OIL

Maybe this will help someone. Its helped me!
I have been around motors my whole life. Mainly automotive but none the less. I was just talking to a buddy of mine last week. He told me he took his Pro Street Dart back to the engine builders [30 yrs. expierence] for the break in tune up. So he calls the builder when he was told to, and finds out the BILLETT cam has a wiped lobe? Total 4 hrs. run time and it has a wiped lobe? It was a brand new BILLETT cam kit. Matching springs, etc. Anyway the builder replaces the cam, adjusts everything else timing, advance, valve clearance [solid lifter] etc. So my buddy calls again as directed and the builder tells him YUP the car was done. BUT...if you would have called 1 hour earlier I would have told you to come pick it up, but in that hours time the replacement cam has wiped out 2 lobes ? WDF? The builder calls the cam mfg. and finds out that recently the EPA has made all oil mfgs. to remove ZINC from their oils. IT appears that ZINC is a break in protectant that allows NEW surfaces to mate/wear in. If you have anything other than a roller your at a very high risk. Most rings are made with MOLY or some other break in protectant, so your cool there. BUT if you have solid, hydraulic, flat tappett lifters. Well your either very lucky or screwed. Its been a very long time since I have been in the local speed shops. Its to my understanding that any good speed shop will offer BREAK IN oils. I have also heard that Desiel oils still have ZINC in them. I just can't believe I haven't read about this somewhere. And I thought I knew it all.....LOL
So if you have that spare engine sitting or just put cams in your bike. I would atleast look into this B4 its too late. And by the way....YES break in lube was used in both cam installations. So much for break in lube! I hope this helps someone, I just can't believe it has been kept a secret from me....LOL

yes i have heard some of the same things and now all of the major cam makers are advising you to use deisel oils for breakin on flat tappet cams as far as break in lube goes i've been using torco mpz cam lube for years and have never lost a cam or bucket or lifter for that matter. by the way mpz stands for moly ,phosporous and zinc

Hate to say I told everyone so but here it is. I have been on my soap box preaching about the new oils and engine break in for years. The new oils are so good at what they do the older engines like our old KZ's cannot "beak" in correctly using them. I have hording cases of the older 30 WT oils just for engine break in.

The oil we’ve been using for years no longer offers the same protection it once did. There’s been a lot written outside this forum regarding the detrimental effects of reducing/removing zinc from automotive motor oil. Zinc (ZDDP or ZDP) is essential in protecting engines with non-roller cams, so I won’t try to address it here. It’s easy to find MUCH discussion on the internet about the impact to cams.

Our government, in an effort to protect emissions systems on cars, mandated that oil companies change their formula for auto oil back in the 2004 timeframe. Zinc (Zinc Dialkydithiophosphate or ZDDP or ZDP) levels were lowered (or removed) in response to the American Petroleum Institute (API) SM and International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) GF-4 (introduced in January 2004) oil specifications. The action was driven by original equipment manufacturers (OEM) based on the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) mandate that emissions reduction systems needed to function for a specific period of time without failing. OEMs pushed to remove anything in motor oils that could potentially harm emissions reduction systems.

However, motorcycle oil and racing oil can still contain effective levels of ZDDP. Personally, I switched away from Castrol GTX when its formula changed and started using Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40 oil. Notice in the chart below that it has double the ZDDP level as regular Mobil 1 car oil and levels higher than the good old GTX formula (1600 vs. 1200) before GTX removed ZDDP.

Mobil Q and A

Chart

If you look at Castrols’s answer to Question #2 in the following link you’ll see “Lower levels of zinc are a problem for owners of older vehicles….. As current oils in market today were "improved" for current standards REMOVAL of certain additives, zinc among them, was required….. Castrol is responding to this problem and after some extensive engineering will be able to offer solutions and information.” This answer doesn’t give me confidence in their product for my bike.

Castrol Q and A

I’m sure the Mobil 1 Racing isn’t the only oil with a high enough level of zinc, but when looking this stuff up on the internet I became very aware that most of the charts that compare different products are so old they don’t reflect current formulas. I would highly recommend that anyone deciding which oil to use take time to visit the oil companies’ sites (such as the Mobil and Castrol above) to get the current formula information. Ed

Funny, my old bike has been running fine on car oil for 30 years and 80,000 miles.

You can buy racing oil if you want high zinc levels.

You can also buy STP Oil treatment which is 5% zinc compounds.

www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/a.../stpoiltreatment.pdf

I suspect the other popular oil additives have zinc in them as well, but I haven't checked their sheets.

Hmmmm, I know the new oils had changed but didnt think it would affect a break in, normally a high spring pressure causes early cam failure, ie, the lifter is not rotating on the cam lobe and the end result is a flat cam.

On another note, there is a lot of metal floating in that engine, it is going to need to be torn down and completely cleaned, the bearings by now are shot, since the amount of metal has damaged them.
I have got the T shirt several times on flat cams,, not fun

I HAVE BEEN LOOKING OVER THE RESPONSES TO MY TOPIC. I THINK ITS FAIR TO SAY THAT THE OILS HAVE CHANGED.
I DON'T KNOW OF ANY MOTORCYCLE THATS 'DOESN'T' USE THE SOLID OR FLAT TAPPETT TYPE OF CAMSHAFT/LIFTERS OTHER THAN HARLEY'S. BTW... THE BUILDER DID IN DEED DROP THE PAN, REMOVE AND REPLACE THE OIL PUMP AND SCREEN, REMOVED A FEW BEARING CAPS AND CHECKED THE BEARINGS. AS WELL AS CUT OPEN THE ORIGINAL FILTER FOR INSPECTION. AT THE TIME THE ENGINE WAS BEING BUILT THE SPRINGS WERE CHECKED AT INSTALLATION HEIGHT FOR CORRECT PRESSURE AND THEN INSTALLED AT THE CORRECT HEIGHT. THIS PROBLEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUILDER/USER ERROR. AFTER USEING THE BREAK IN OIL SO FAR THE MOTOR HAS A TOTAL OF 20 HRS. STREET TIME. NO PROBLEMS THUS FAR. DO 'NOT' MAKE THE MISTAKE OF PUTTING OFF THE SHELF OIL IN YOUR FRESH MOTOR IS MY SUGGESTION. THERE IS SIMPLY TOO MUCH INFO OUT THERE TELLING YOU THE CONTRARY.
I HOPE THIS HELPS !

I am now using Castrol Act>Evo X-tra 4T motorcycle oil. According to the product data sheet it is billed as:

Castrol Act>evo X–tra 4T with Trizone Technology is a premium quality part synthetic 4–stroke engine oil. It is specially formulated to protect your bike's engine against the build up of harmful deposits even when you work your bike hard — on the open road or in dense city traffic.

How much of that is advertising hype is a good question. What they do show is that it has an API SG rating a Zinc content of 0.113% of wt. While that is probably less than break-in oil, it sounds like it's much more than what is in the SM car oils.

The stuff isn't cheap, $5.99/Lt or about $22 per 4Lt jug. Yet, I figure my old KZs are worth it.

Take a look at this website for a pretty thorough take on modern oils.

www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

There was also a great thread on the effects of modern oils with no/low zinc levels used in old Brit bikes....but I've got to do some more looking to find the website for that one.
Maybe someone else on here has that address ???

Back in my youth when dinsosaurs still roamed, every time we built an engine up we painted everything with STP oil treatment during assembly to make sure it had some lube at fire up. Never had a single problem.

I had to overhaul my KZ 750 engine last year. I used a 50-50 blend of STP and Valvoline regular oil to paint everything up during assembly and loaded the top end (lifters and cams) with that same blend. The STP is very sticky and keeps it from draining off, it also apparrently is dosed with zinc compounds according to its ingredients list.

No problems.

N0NB wrote:

I am now using Castrol Act>Evo X-tra 4T motorcycle oil. According to the product data sheet it is billed as:

Castrol Act>evo X–tra 4T with Trizone Technology is a premium quality part synthetic 4–stroke engine oil. It is specially formulated to protect your bike's engine against the build up of harmful deposits even when you work your bike hard — on the open road or in dense city traffic.

How much of that is advertising hype is a good question. What they do show is that it has an API SG rating a Zinc content of 0.113% of wt. While that is probably less than break-in oil, it sounds like it's much more than what is in the SM car oils.

The stuff isn't cheap, $5.99/Lt or about $22 per 4Lt jug. Yet, I figure my old KZs are worth it.

If my math floats. 0.113% is equal to about 1130 ppm (parts per million). The info I have heard and read said the "sweet spot" for zinc levels is around 1500 - 1600 ppm. If you go higher, you can cause deposits in the combustion chamber so more isn't always better. Much lower and you start to lose wear protection. I think modern car oils are in the 800 - 1000 range (?) to prevent harming the cat converter. Racing oils are higher towards the 1500 - 1600 range.

bountyhunter wrote: "I think modern car oils are in the 800 - 1000 range (?) to prevent harming the cat converter. Racing oils are higher towards the 1500 - 1600 range."

Yes, actually the max allowed for modern passenger car oils is 800 but many of the oil companies dropped it to 0. Some of these companies are "substituting molybdenum disulfide, which lowers friction and improves gas mileage. It also causes problems for people with wet clutches, that is most motorcycles." (Reference:H2RICK's link). Ed