700cc 650 - worthwhile?

I was implying they are not the only place who can make horsepower, theres magic all around, like me, and i might be a little :silly: and somewhat :woohoo: but im not:angry: just lookin at what you said like:dry: because it seems to me you :ohmy: when read what i wrote, so im thinkin back to:kiss: it's . Im just to spoiled from working on my own stuff, and the contrast just keepspoppingup. that's all. nothing wrong with the head or the bed.

lol, yer nuts for sure man. i appreciate what you say, they're definitely not the only place to have shit done, just the most convenient for me, even though they're on the other side of North America from me. there aren't any good head shops for at least two thousand miles anyways, and i'd ratehr use one with a good reputation if i cant go there to see the place for myself.

and i'm not a guy who shies away from work. while the head's away i'll be stripping my engine for a paint job, repainting most of my bike, and replacing an assload of components that have seen better days. i'm going to be welding a couple key braces into my frame as well, and i'm thinking of bracing the swingarm too while i'm at it.

i'm a little :silly: myself sometimes haha.

Nads, you have a reading comprehension problem?

Any machinist can bore a cylinder, but if you want maximum hp then APE is the place to go to have it done.

Most machine shops can bore a cylinder and then hone it with a Sunnen hone on a half inch drill, sheesh, I can do it right here in my shop, and I do, on my own motors. But I can't get the ring seal that APE can because I don't have a $35,000 honing machine with diamond hones and flood coolant, and neither do any of the other machine shops around here.

Any of your local shops have one of these?



Or maybe you figure a block of wood and a piece of sandpaper is close enough :S

While you are at it, be sure and tell your local guy that you want the bore finish to have an RA of 8-12, RPK of 5-15, and RVK of 15-30, and when he says "what are you talking about?", I'm sure you can explain it to him since you are an expert in cylinder honing.

There's "good enough" and then there's "perfect", perfect will beat good enough in hp output every time.


Here's the honing machine that APE uses, way out of my price range.



And APE's Serdi cylinder head machine, but I'm sure you can do better with your "magic" and a piece of emery cloth :dry:

steell's a funny guy, and he's right

ok steel my hands are tied. the equipment ape has is the best and the most expensive on the planet. BUT have you read any dyno reports on motors with many thou of wear in the cyl. compared to ones that are in spec? NO difference in OUTPUT. None/none. Theoreticly speaking, would you be willing (honestly) to bet money on identical blocks one machined by ape, and another by a less structurally integral shop, as to which one would make more power? Say switching blocks between the two motors and using the same head? I'll answer for you... no cuz you for one you have no money or you'd have the perfect machines in your shop already. If you drove up on test day with smoke pouring out of your tail pipe (one your own motors) i'd know i was going to lose the bet, but your engines arent smoking are they steel? I seen a guy here fargo nd hone a polaris 2stroke cyl. on a half inch drill type hone with water cooling and used a 700 dollar bore gauge to measure. He had done many many cyl. this was the max bore and pist. size, it had been bored bfore and very crooked 9thou on one side and barely scraping the other, well it made it through the bore and i took it home and turned it over four times and bam the rings sealed. NO problem man. What exactly is the value, worth, benefit, advantage, etc, to the grey area that is of no consequence, filling in a crack? However i do respect every opinion.

your rings sealed perfectly in a newly honed cylinder after 4 revs? wow, yer my hero, i thought that took miles and miles of breaking in.

this is really turning into a pissing contest isn't it?
there is no doubt ape is probally one on the leaders in his field. one of the best if not the best.
on the other hand, there are pleanty of guys here who have a guy and have also had amazing results using him.
trying to brow beat people into either using him or going another route is counter productive of what we do here.
just lay the facts out and let people make their own decision with what they read. simple as that.
i don't see a winner in this arguement, all i see is sour feelings.
if i won the lottery tommorrow, jay would be building me my next motor.
but there are things i also would only trust him to do for me. ie my clutch basket. he has done hundreds and has it down pat.

lets just stop the bs and help 77-650b1 with what he asked us for ok?


( disclaimer: sorry if i hurt any feelings )

and kawasakiman has really offered to help! go take a look at your pm's, i sold those gsxr forks, so calculate shipping and here we go 750 cylinders for me!! i;d just like a pic or two thats all...



:woohoo: cant wait to have an 810cc KZ650!!!

If you want to know the differences between the two, you do a leakdown test.

If you really seriously want to know about the differences, talk to the top drag racing teams in the country, they can tell you exactly how many tenths a properly honed cylinder is worth.

If you really want to learn about this stuff, spend a few months reading the Automotive Engineering Forum at www.eng-tips.com/

That's where the real gearheads are, the guys that build the motors for professional racers, including the major cam designer for Nascar teams and at least a few of the top Funny car engine builders. They do not suffer fools gladly though, post misinformation as fact and they get rather nasty, if they bother to answer at all. A lot of those guys have their own dynos and will build a motor and slap it on a dyno just to see if one kind of piston ring is better than another.

I have been a member there for years, and I have never posted, I know when I'm outclassed

Sure can learn an awful lot by reading though.

By the way, I do have two metal lathes, vertical mill, surface grinder, mig, arc, and gas welders, and other miscellaneous equipment and tooling here in my home shop, I really prefer to do "everything" myself, but I do know my limits

Edit:
I see there have been a couple of posts made during the time I was typing this (yeah, I'm a slow typist). No hard feelings on my part, and this was my last post on the subject

yeah i think we've all beat it to death lol.

so would you recommend an oil cooler for an 810cc kz650? i ride pretty hard, although it hardly goes above 20 degrees celsius (70F) through most of my summer.

You "probably" won't need an oil cooler, but Kawasaki put them on the 83-85 GPz750's (at least those years, maybe others), and the GPz750 oil pan and cooler will bolt on your bike.

If I didn't already have one for my KZ750E project bike, I'd be looking for one.

I was just thinking of getting a small aftermarket one and rigging it up myself. Doesn't look to hard, you can get the front fittings anywhere, and I'm a trick hand on a lathe so the back one wont prove diffcult I wouldn't say. Would the GPz be easier/cheaper? I do live in NL, Canada, so I like to make things myself when I can to minimize shipping costs.