1978 KZ1000 No Spark

I am cobbling together a 1978 KZ1000 from a couple of bikes, an A2 and a Z1. The engine I am using was built by a drag bike buider who is unknown to me, I bought it from a thrid party, and is said to have a Z1 crank, 1075 kit and performance cams installed. I put the engine in it over the past few weeks. My bike has the stock coils and wires but this would be the first time to run.

The engine: the distributor cover had nothing installed underneath where the points would normally be. I installed electronic ignition for this bike, the DS2-1.

I am having a problem getting spark with the DS2-1. The engine cranks strong.

I have not ruled out the coils or other components as I dont know how to do that. I admit that I am somewhat electrically challenged (good with wrenches!). All of the elec parts on this bike are orig as best as I can tell and there is no telling who worked on this thing before I got it.

All other elec components seem to work fine though, lights, neutral light, turn signals, head light, brake lights etc.

I could understand if I got the firing order or timing wrong and could address that, but I assume I still should be getting spark even if those elements were not quite right.

I have a multimeter but am a novice.

Does anyone trouble shooting procedures or suggestions to get me moving in the right direction?

Dave

have you checked to see if you have power to the coils, there is a flow chart someplace on the site, dont remeber where, try a search

I looked for the flow chart but found only one for the charging system. Step one, start the engine and rev it to...

Ideas on where this may be?

To check if you have power to the coils
Each coil should have 2 wires going to it. One will be red and the other will be probably green on one coil and black to the other. It's the red you are ibterested in. Connect one probe from the meter to one red wire and the other to a good ground point on the frame or engine and turn on the ignition switch - you dont need to hit the starter button. You should see 12V DC on the meter .. i.e you should see near the same voltage as if you connected the probes to the battery terminals.


However, having said all that I'm wondering about your setup. I dont know a heck of a lot about aftermarket electronic ignitions or your DS2-1. The original bike probably had points and along with the points were two condensers. My factory electronic ignition has no condensers and instead has an ignitor box.
So..... I'm not entirely sure that you can just remove a points plate and replace with some brands of electronic ignition without making some other mods to insure compatability.

Sorry I cant help more. Hang in there and I'm sure someone with a lot more knowledge that me will be along soon with the answer.

Do you have a manual for the bike and what guidance for the DS2-1 system do the instructions give ....It did come with instructions ?

Thanks, I'll look at it today if I can. The DS2-1 came with instructions. It plugs into the same connections for the green and black wires where the points system would connect. There is a red wire, presumably power to the DS2 that you splice into the yellow and red wire. (typing from memory here). Dave

I checked the voltage at the battery and it is 11.2. A little low but it has been sitting for awhile. At the input for the coils I get 10.3 steady reading with the ignition on. Is that low?

Does that mean that the coils are bad since power going in and no spark on the output side? The plugs are new and the plug wires and boots are old. I am just assuming that all 4 plug wires would not be bad at the same time, but I suppose that could happen on such an old bike.

If I could figure out how to disconnect the plug wires at the coil I could check continuity. Do they just pull off? They are not like auto coils with a boot.

Dave

Hello Knowmad (cool name -- guessing in honor of Kawasaki Nomad) and Welcome Aboard!
We're glad you're here.

Already some excellent advice in above posts.

Under the tank should be a dual connector serving each coil with battery voltage (oem was dual red/yellow wires from a single red/yellow wire).

But if wiring has been modified, just follow advice from JR and BSKZ650 to assure battery voltage to the dual connector and from there to each coil.

If getting no voltage to either coil, may just wire coils directly to the positive battery terminal for testing purposes. It doesn't matter which coil terminal receives the positive battery voltage, so long as each coil is receiving battery voltage.

Usually the left coil fires both outside sparkplugs, and the right coil fires both inside sparkplugs. As known, the outside pistons move up and down together, as do the inside pistons which are lowest when the outside pistons are highest (top dead center or TDC).

As known, the four strokes: Intake (piston moving down) -- Compression (piston moving up) -- Power (piston moving down) -- Exhaust (piston moving up).

For example, the left coil fires both outside sparkplugs slightly before the outside pistons reach TDC (as determined by ignition timing). The spark ignites the compressed fuel mixture in one outside cylinder, and the spark is wasted in the other outside cylinder.

The other wire from each coil (oem was black to the left coil and green to the right coil) runs to the ignition trigger under the points cover. The black wire on the left side under the points cover goes to the left coil, and the green wire on the right side under the points cover goes to the right coil.

These two ignition trigger wires (black to left coil and green to right coil) provide a ground from each respective coil. When the coil ground is interrupted by the trigger (whether points opening or other method) the coil grounds itself through the sparkplug wires (producing the spark as current arcs to ground).

Although both coils may be bad, it is rare for both coils to fail simultaneously.

So, as earlier advised, getting battery voltage to both coils is a prerequisite. And let's proceed with the diagnosis from there (battery voltage okay to coils) if there's still no spark at the plugs, or no spark to a pair of the plugs, or maybe no spark to just one of the plugs.

And please forgive my Simple Simon approach to this, as it's often the best way I can understand it.

Good Luck!

Knowmad wrote:

I checked the voltage at the battery and it is 11.2. A little low but it has been sitting for awhile. At the input for the coils I get 10.3 steady reading with the ignition on. Is that low?

Does that mean that the coils are bad since power going in and no spark on the output side? The plugs are new and the plug wires and boots are old. I am just assuming that all 4 plug wires would not be bad at the same time, but I suppose that could happen on such an old bike.

If I could figure out how to disconnect the plug wires at the coil I could check continuity. Do they just pull off? They are not like auto coils with a boot.

Thanks, I'll look at it today if I can. The DS2-1 came with instructions. It plugs into the same connections for the green and black wires where the points system would connect. There is a red wire, presumably power to the DS2 that you splice into the yellow and red wire. (typing from memory here).
Dave

There is a red wire, presumably power to the DS2 that you splice into the yellow and red wire. This a common connection failure where most advisers recommend solder instead of crimp joint. Should assure good solid splice connection to red/yellow.

Would get battery fully charged before more testing for spark at business ends of plugs. Am interpreting history to mean ZERO spark at plugs when removed and held grounded against the head while proceeding with otherwise usual starting procedure. And be certain the negative battery terminal has a good solid connection to ground.

Would test primary and secondary coil windings. Ignition switch off and plug wires removed from plugs. Read ohms between coil terminals (between red/yellow terminal and black terminal for left coil -- and between red/yellow terminal and green terminal for right coil). Should read 3.2 - 4.8 ohms for this primary winding check.

The secondary windings are tested on each coil by reading ohms between ends of plug wires (without caps). The reading should be high, 10.4K to 15.6K ohms. But correct ohm range doesn't assure absence of leakage through insulation on old plug wires from cracking or deterioration. Also doesn't diagnose faulty plug caps due to bad resistors or otherwise. May also do ohm readings on individual plug caps -- and perhaps find them all different.

If I could figure out how to disconnect the plug wires at the coil I could check continuity. Do they just pull off? The oem plug wires are permanently affixed to the coils and are not designed to pull off.

Post edited by: Patton, at: 2007/12/30 16:50

Patton,

Thanks for the info and tutorial. Very Helpful. Knowmad did come from the Kawi but my kids think its because of my temper~!

I will check the splice. I never liked those crimp connectors anyway. I will do the other tests to see what I can see and report here. Maybe be a day or two though.

Dave

Seee. What did I tell you I knew someone with the knowledge would be right along:) .

Like patton says charge up that battery - 11.2 at the battery is low and you have a 1 volt drop from there to the coils. I think 10.3 V at the coils would give you a very weak spark. If you charge up to 12 V and double check or solder that connection like patton suggests then she just migh spark and fire.
When you have figured out this problem and got spark look to www.wgcarbs.com and search for a coil modification which will get you full batteyr voltage at the coils. It's a simple chea[ mod and a lot of us here have done .
good luck

With the key off the reading between posts on 1-4 coil is 3.7 and on 2-3 coil it's 3.8.

Reading between plug boots 1 and 4 is 25.8 and between 2-3 is 24.6. If I understand this test correctly, one lead is on one plug wire and the other is on the other plug wire, both on the same coil. Right?

Does this tell me coils are ok as well as electric system leading up to them?

BTW, thanks for this help. I really need some education on electrical matters.

Dave

Knowmad wrote:

With the key off the reading between posts on 1-4 coil is 3.7 and on 2-3 coil it's 3.8.

Reading between plug boots 1 and 4 is 25.8 and between 2-3 is 24.6.
Dave

The first pair of readings look good. The second set 24.6 & 25.8k ohm seem high. However, are you taking the reading with the plug cap (boot ?) still on the end of the wire from the coil ? If so then try to remove the plug cap by peeling back the rubber sleeve at the joint between plug wire and plug cap and try to unscrew the entire cap. The plug caps often have resistors built in and sometimes these fail. A high resistance from the plug cap could contribute to your high reading for the coil secondary winding. Take the measurement without the plug cap and you should also measure the resistance from one end of the plug cap to the other.

If you are measuring with the plug caps still in place and each cap has a 5k ohm resistance then that could likely bump up the readings to what you got.



And to answer your question , yes one lead is on one plug wire and the other is on the other plug wire, both on the same coil.