help me decide on engine build: big cams, compression and NOS vs low compression TURBO????

Go the turbo in a KZ650, i've often thought of the concept and would like to see it done
you could have a one off side cover badge made "KZ650TURBO", now that would look cool!

Dave Sloan (Where is he anyway? He ought to be posting here) posted the following at cyclemadness on 4/9/07 (he's Evad on there).

Hi Guys, the IC igniter that I was using on my 650 blew up and I am now modding the Megasquirt ecu to run the ignition, does anyone have any advice on how much advance thto use as a starting point?

Feel free to register at www.cyclemadness.com/ and post in the MegaSquirt forum there, that forum was started at my request, and it's been kinda slow

MegaSquirt is not real easy to install and tune, but I (and many others) think it's worthwhile to do so, on the setup you are asking about, a carb is not going to be real easy to tune either

Autotune just gives you a baseline AFR map which has to be fine tuned, it's just a starting point. Check out the forums and manual at www.msefi.com/index.php

I'm just throwing out ideas here, you are the one that has to pay for it all and do all the work, so you have to make the decisions.

Post edited by: steell, at: 2007/05/08 07:35

this stuff is getting complex:( I was hoping that once it was put together, it would correct its self with a wide band O2 sensor to have a proper AF ratio and it would be done.
the draw thru carb setup has been done many times on bigger bikes and works well, im leaning back towards that now unless this stuff gets easier to understand. i checked out the second link and everything was over my head. ill have to check out cyclemadness, maybe some more down to earth stuff is there
getting back to tossing around ideas (keep doing that Steve:) ) If i decided to go draw thru carb. I would be looking at something very similar if not the same thing used on the 900/1000 kits right? since ill have close to the same displacement, be focusing on midrange and top end power, and have lower compression pistons than what the old bolt on kits used (bolt on a stock compression 900/1000 motor) IIRC they used a mikuni HSR 42mm ??? are there other similar carbs that would work well? what would i be looking for to ebay one? they come on a lot of harleys correct?(is there anywhere i can find out which ones?)
the other thing that i need to know is if i go draw through, how do i set up timing? i dont really want it retarded all the time so it only works well under full boost. i want to be able to have the timing advanced(normal) under low boost and retarded under full boost. (unless however someone can convince me its not worth the bother)
since tuning a carb would also require work, how much would a wideband 02 sensor help? Im thinking that it would be just a bit better than a plug chop:P

Ok, it goes like this.

Install EFI componets
(1) Fuel pump, GPz1100/750 Turbo/Ford F150 external/etc.
(2) Throttlebodies, GPz750 Turbo or 83-84 GPz1100.
(3) Sensors, thermister for cylinder head temp, GM water temp sensor in the airbox (anywhere in the intake air stream) for Intake Air Temp.
(4) Map sensor is in the MegaSquirt.
(5) Get a Inovate LC-1 Wideband controller with sensor ($200), and weld in a O2 sensor bung on the exhaust.
(6) Tune it so it will idle using a laptop and software (MegaTune (Windows only) or Megatunix (Windows or Linux/BSD), any old laptop that has a serial port will work.
(7) Get a cheap Palm III, V, Vx, etc, PDA, has to have OS 3.5 to 4.1 and a serial cradle.
( Mount Palm on handlebars and use Palmtune software for datalogging, then either tune with the Palm or upload the Data log to the laptop or PC, adjust the fuel map then reload the updated map into the MegaSquirt.
(9) Once bike is running halfway decent, take it and the laptop to a dyno for final tuning.

Sounds complicated, don't it?

I have been on the original MegaSquirt Mailing list, and the new forums, for 3-4 years, and I have seen new guys without any computer or electronics background, build, install, tune, and race, with MegaSquirt. Rick Yaguochi (sp) has run his streamliner turbo bike at over 300 mph at Bonneville using a MegaSquirt.

All the tuning software is free and constantly being updated/improved, any question (or problem) you could possibly have is, or will be, answered in the MegaSquirt Forums.

There is no question in my mind that you could get it working with a carb, there is also no question that you could get it working better with EFI

Download and install the latest version of MegaTune or MegaTunix and check it out, it won't take you long to understand it and get up to speed, and it don't cost you a dime.

Read The MegaSquirt Manual as well, it does a pretty good job of explaining EFI.

Nothing worth having comes easy

The MegaSquirt forum on Cyclemadness never did become as active as I thought it would, I guess there aren't as many gearheads that are also computer geeks as I thought

Maybe that's why my wife tells me "when they made you they broke the mold, thank God"

On tuning the carb with a wideband O2, I think it would be pretty much required, considering what would happen if the mixture went lean under boost.

Post edited by: steell, at: 2007/05/09 00:32

This is a joke right ?
With an HD carb ?

Sure ..anything is possible..

BUT you are talking about $10,000 worth of engine
(+)
AT LEAST $10,000 worth of EFI and electronics to run it without killing it ..

In a semi stock frame ?

That still looks stock ?

Like I said , this is a joke right ??

You can make all the POWER money will buy. You still have to make it stick to the ground and rider friendly.
Mark

HI Guys, bugger Im missing all the fun here,lol
As Steve said the mega squirt has been used to run every thing fron a briggs and straton race motor, jet ski to a v12 BMW rally car.
Have a look at this link, its Arttu's bike in Finland.
www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=4059 .
I am running ignition now as well as Fuel on the ms, using one of the 2 Kawasaki Vr sensors on the original plate. I have a 12-1 toothed wheel on the crank for the timing. Bike has a fair bit of electrical noise but I am fitting new spiral wound plug leads and resisor plugs tomorrow which should solve the problem.
I am a Marine Fitter by trade and did not have any electrical knowledge when I started this project, so if I can do it anyone can :silly:
You can tune the bike on the run using yuor laptop while the bike is running but I am logging while riding then I download the lod into the laptop and run it through megalog veiwer. There is a ve analyser function in MLV, what you do is set up a table with your target afrs amd then the ve analyser runs through the log and adjusts you ve table to suit your target afr.
Ignition can be controlled with the map sensor, cool thing is if you have any problems you can post on th forum and get help.
Have alook at this link on the MS&S Extra code
megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/
There are a lot of things that suit a turbo application.

OOPS, double post....................:blush:
Steve is cyclemadness down, come up as forbidden:woohoo:

Dave Sloan wrote:

OOPS, double post....................:blush:
Steve is cyclemadness down, come up as forbidden:woohoo:

Yep, I get the same thing.
I have no idea what's going on.

MDawnz1 wrote:

This is a joke right ?
With an HD carb ?

Sure ..anything is possible..

BUT you are talking about $10,000 worth of engine
(+)
AT LEAST $10,000 worth of EFI and electronics to run it without killing it ..

In a semi stock frame ?

That still looks stock ?

Like I said , this is a joke right ??

I don't think it would cost near that much even if you sent the bike out to have it all done for you, maybe $10k total doing it that way.

Building it yourself, probably $3k to $5K in the motor, depending on what you do to the motor, and around $1k for the EFI including 2 hours on the dyno.

Check out www.750turbo.com , a number of people there are running 170 hp with an 810 kit on otherwise stock internals, and stock EFI with the exception of a Power Commander and GPz1100 throttlebodies. Lorcan's bike has 234 rwhp (last I heard, might be more now), and I doubt it would cost him anywhere near $10k to build another one just like it. That's only a little more than a 50% increase over a stock GPz750 Turbo.

Last update I read on Lorcan's bike, he was running low nines in the quarter and 211 mph in land speed racing, on a 23 year old bike

MDawnz1 wrote:

This is a joke right ?
With an HD carb ?

Sure ..anything is possible..

BUT you are talking about $10,000 worth of engine
(+)
AT LEAST $10,000 worth of EFI and electronics to run it without killing it ..

In a semi stock frame ?

That still looks stock ?

Like I said , this is a joke right ??

hardly a joke (pun intended ) braced stock frame, zx suspension. does not look stock at all :lol:
an HD carb is the best part of an HD. its a MIKUNI
this is part of an instant messenger convo i had with the guy that has ECHO CYCLE (edited to make it shorter and easy to read)

Chad says:
i would put a T3 draw through on it and make 170 - 180 at the wheel and still be super smooth and streetable. i done a draw through on a Speedmaster. they work awesome. i bet you could build that engine for about $1000.00 with turbo and everything you need if you do all work yaself.
Scott says:
i was thinking that if i built it with the higher compression pistons, and put maybe a 30 shot of nitrous (wet) to it, that it would be enough, haha its a 1977. although a turbo would be more fun, just more money
Chad says:
i know for a fact i could build a turbo engine with way more power and less money then a n/a engine would cost. turbo (ebay) $150, pistons... say $400? Carb, ebay $50, exhaust and intake, $20 scrap steel tubing
give it some good thought about the turbo, its big power, honestly not much money, and pretty easy to do with help from online forums and myself

you can check out the speedmaster he was talking about HERE

well it looks like im going to have to join another forum before i decide on how to go. :laugh: (i think that will make 7) im am quite convinced that i will be going some sort of turbo setup, just need to figure out blow thru or draw thru:whistle: i hate to put of riding season longer though.....ill have everything to put the motor together when my order from Z1E comes in. (well not big cams, but i have kz750 cams "for now") then i need to finish the front end and figure out paint:P i wouldnt mind putting off the build as much if my other bike was streetable, the zx12r was bought as a wreck, fixed and hasnt been on the road (leagally:evil: ) since. it doesnt have a title so im trying to figure that out....

getting back on topic, thx for breaking it down Steve, im 100% positive i can do everything now (except tune :pinch: ) i can build stuff, but computer stuff is my weakness:laugh: im willing to learn, and i think i can with help.
thx for the links and info Dave. i checked them out. keep the info coming guys. its very appreciated:)