help me decide on engine build: big cams, compression and NOS vs low compression TURBO????

OK, the original plan for my 650 was the 750 cylinder swap, and the wiseco 810 kit, 28mm carbs, pod filters, 4-1 pipe, big hairy cams (web 110 grind), and add nitrous a bit later on. hoping to get 110 hp N/A and 140 on spray. motor isn't together yet, still need to buy cams, valve springs(if i get the cams) and a wet nitrous kit. now my dilemma....
through another forum I "met" a really nice guy that is more nuts about HP than wiredood (yes its possible) he has his own speed shop and is very knowledgeable. he built a custom turbo setup for a Triumph Rocket 3 and got a 300% increase in hp. check it out here this guy also has a zx12r that he had a 90 shot of nitrous on for "every day street use" and that just wasn't enough at 251hp at the rear wheel, so hes building a custom turbo setup that's going to be putting out 450+ hp. anyway, we were talking tech stuff, well he was basically answering questions, but we started talking about my kz build. hes convinced that i wont be happy with the plan i have as it wont be enough power and ill be spending a lot(read too much) to get it. (I'm putting nitrous on my zx12r for drag racing so ill be used to, and expecting gobs of power) he told me i should, with his help online and from the "kz forum" (all my friends here on kzrider.com) build a simple custom draw through turbo setup that would make 170-180 hp, and (in his words) "be super smooth and street-able". basically put together a "kit" from ebayed parts doing all the work myself(with his and your guidance). i could resell my still new and unused 810 kit, sell the 24mm and 28mm carbs as well as the 750 cams and valves i have to help pay for the new stuff (the gpz750 turbo 810 kit, turbo ect...). plus i will be saving about 500 if i don't get cams and springs(after shipping and exchange rate), not to mention close to double that for the wet nitrous kit. the only thing is I'm not sure if ill be able to sell what i don't need, and find what i need cost effectively. ill probably be needing a t3 or similar and a carb off of a hardly. not to mention some steel tubing, but the exhaust stuff should be fairly cheap. and like he said, if it turns out to be heavy, just turn up the boost a bit more lol. one thing I'm concerned about will be proper oiling, so i may want to hook up an electric pump just for the turbo. lack of oil pressure wouldn't be an issue for the turbo then, and i wouldn't be robbing the system of volume that normally goes to the cams and crank. timing was another thing he mentioned that the high hp kz guys should know the answer off the top of their heads. how can i get boost sensitive timing retard? or is it really needed? lack of timing under low boost hurts hp, but is it very noticeable?
if you have any comments or suggestions, i would love to hear them. if you may be interested I'm the parts i may not be using now, please let me know and ill put you at the top of the list if i decide to go through with the turbo idea. I think the finished turbo system would really resemble the old school kits that were out for the 900/1000s (like Jeff's Z1 900 BOTM) but i would still like to put a magaphone tip like my MAC pipe has on it, or maybe the whole 4-1 could be sold aswell....
wireman, steell, ape jay, lorcan and the rest of you, please voice your opinions

Post edited by: 77KZ650, at: 2007/05/07 03:54

Moar POWAH!

My friend has a 84 GPZ750 turbo.It has
810 turbo pistons and some turbo work.
It is fast and has been dependable.

You might want to check into the scavenge oil pump off the gPz750 Turbo, it sucks the oil from the turbo and returns it to the crankcase and is mechanical.

Last I heard, Lorcan was getting 234 hp from his 810 kitted 750 Turbo, so he definitely knows how to do it

Personally, (and I think Lorcan will agree), I think EFI is the way to go, not a carb.

Stock 650 cams are the same as the GPz750 Turbo cams, so you will save quite a bit of money there.

I'm interested in your 810 kit, maybe by the time you decide to sell it I'll be able to afford it

I could probably come up with a set of GPz1100 throttlebodies, a MegaSquirt EFI controller, and fuel pump, if you decide to go EFI.

The MegaSquirt can control timing (Dave Sloan is doing it on a 650/810) so ignition retard is no problem.

More later, I have to get out of here and go to work.

I believe thats on race gas and intercooled, a bit more technical/unpractical than i want to go:P i want 170-180 all the time and just fill it up with normal (highest octane availabe) pump gas. lorcan is also dyno tuned with a power commander connected to a 750 turbo ecu, and while the megasquirt would self tune (i think) i would need some extra stuff to do it. wideband commander? timing control with the megasquirt would be great, but can it be boost sensitive? I was told i dont want to run a bunch of static retard.
he suggested a draw thruogh carb system since it would be the easiest to make, but im not opposed to efi as long as it stays within the budget:P
ill put you on the top of the list for my pistons Steve

im leaning towards the blow through system myself but its going to be more complicated im also going fuel injected dont forget all the work the rest of the chassis is gonna need to make it all workB)

Post edited by: wireman, at: 2007/05/07 17:08

If E-85 is readily available where you are then, IMO, blown and injected is the way to go. Have not done myself but have been scouting for a steal on a small Eaton mechanical blower in anticipation of E-85 eventually taking over. No rush. Only one station and it's on the other side of town. Won't have to deal with all that expensive bent tubing. Will have to deal with fabricating a power takeoff and if on ignition side, an alternative timing pickup.

I havent seen E-85 around here yet, but i havent really been looking either...
I have the chassis braced in a couple spots, and im going to add a bit more yet. zx6/7 hybrid suspension

The GPz750 Turbo would be the best stock frame to start with (if you can find one), they are made with larger thicker walled tubing and are also reinforced.

There is at least a 3 bar (29.4 psi) baro sensor available for the MegaSquirt, and it ships with a two bar baro sensor (14.7 psi). A wideband O2 sensor and controller is required if you are going to use a turbo ($200) and it plugs directly into the MegaSquirt. The MegaSquirt is not self tuning, dyno time is the answer for max power, but the same is true of carbs.

I have an extra set of GPz1100 throttlebodies, fuel pump, GPz750 Turbo airbox, laptop computer and software for tuning, etc, I would need to buy and assemble another MegaSquirt kit, about the only thing you would need to buy is the wideband controller and sensor ($200 combined). I am installing a MegaSquirt on a KZ750E right now, I just need to buy some burrs for the die grinder to open up the parts to match the throttlebodies. Almost forgot, you would also need a set of 81-83 KZ1000 carb holders (manifolds).

And I'm sure we could work out some sort of trade

One thing to think about, it's easier to get 170-200 hp out of a 1000-1100 than it is a 750/810, especially a 83-84 1100 motor, and it will fit in a 650 frame (tight fit though), it's been done.

Its actually very hard to find bikes and used parts up here, and i think that when i add a few more braces to my frame it will be rugged enough to handle whatever i throw at it. plus i want to have kz650 stamped on the frame:P
im not sure how much boost ill be using yet, the most i can get away with safely on supreme pump gas and no intercooler or water/alc injection. i might be going over 14 psi... does the baro sensor affect timing or just fuel?
hmmm i could use a wideband O2 sensor to help tune my 12R for nitrous aswell...
I though for sure that i had read that the megasquirt was self tuning if you had the wideband sensor. Ill check again, but I thought Dave Sloan was using a palm pilot (a little easier than a laptop) for it to self tune as he was driving around.
haha quit tempting me to go high tech:P im this close to sending you a pm for a price or to figure out a trade:whistle: (maybe with a bit more info i will) I have a set of carb boots that fit the 28mm carbs I was originally planning on using (from a 1000) on the way from Z1E in my last order. I assume those will work, but ill double check.
I know the bigger motors make the hp easier, but nobody is going to have a bike like mine, and thats part of the whole reason i want to do it(plus i have a lot of the parts). kz650 stamped on the frame and motor just to prove its not a 1000 to guys that arent too familiar with bikes (0.738l filed off of the cylinder block:whistle: :whistle: :whistle: ) zx suspension. and enough power to hang with a gixxer on a straight. haha squid on gixxer stops to see what that crazy bike is "its a 1977 kz650 with a few upgrades":evil:
damn, this would really put the APE clutch kit to the test.....

steell wrote:

The GPz750 Turbo would be the best stock frame to start with (if you can find one), they are made with larger thicker walled tubing and are also reinforced.

There is at least a 3 bar (29.4 psi) baro sensor available for the MegaSquirt, and it ships with a two bar baro sensor (14.7 psi). A wideband O2 sensor and controller is required if you are going to use a turbo ($200) and it plugs directly into the MegaSquirt. The MegaSquirt is not self tuning, dyno time is the answer for max power, but the same is true of carbs.

I have an extra set of GPz1100 throttlebodies, fuel pump, GPz750 Turbo airbox, laptop computer and software for tuning, etc, I would need to buy and assemble another MegaSquirt kit, about the only thing you would need to buy is the wideband controller and sensor ($200 combined). I am installing a MegaSquirt on a KZ750E right now, I just need to buy some burrs for the die grinder to open up the parts to match the throttlebodies. Almost forgot, you would also need a set of 81-83 KZ1000 carb holders (manifolds).

And I'm sure we could work out some sort of trade

One thing to think about, it's easier to get 170-200 hp out of a 1000-1100 than it is a 750/810, especially a 83-84 1100 motor, and it will fit in a 650 frame (tight fit though), it's been done.

its even easier to get it out of a 1385!:evil:

Dave Sloan wrote:

Hi, I dont have a website unfortuanatly but I more than willing to give a hand in anyway that I can.
Just let me know what info you need, I am running fuel only at the moment with the ignition from a GPZ750R1 (last of the mechanical advance but will be changing to megasquirt control as soon as I have the fuel side completely tuned. If you are keen to get involved it looks like the mega squirt will do basically anything out there! If you have a look at the MS&s Extra site
megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/ at this address you can see exactly what it can do. i must say I knew absolutly zip about fuel injection (even know I dont know much, lol) but I have learnt a lot and with help from the forum members it runs and I am busy tuning it on the road now, I have a video of the bike running in the garage if you are interested.

The setup on teh bike is Gpz1100A3, throttle bodies (35mm), fuel pump, injectors (180cc/min) fuel pres regulator,z1000J inlet manifolds (z1 enterprises)
sensors are really small theremisters with the table compiled using easytherm on the ms website..
I am tuning using a techedge 2eo wideband setup and a palm 111c using palm tune (also off of teh ms site)
Although I am going to connect teh wbo2 to the ms ecu and run auto tune shortly ( just needed to get a new battery for my laptop so that it can be run in a bag when the bike is being ridden and it will tune itself.
Hope that helps, as I say if you want any other info let me know.
Cheers

Dave

found that in an old post