TOPIC:

 Wow, you really put a lot of faith in Chineseium parts. I’ll take the tried and true OEM any day.

Im not talking about me putting faith in any parts - Im just saying that people are paying more for the bikes that are rebult, so there must be a reason for that.
Time will tell how good "Chinesium parts" are.

blackozvet wrote:

Ian_B wrote:

Remarkable what someone paid for it, considering how much is no longer original; Doremi parts, frame powder coated (a pet hate of mine). Makes you wonder what a genuine original bike would be worth...
Ian

Over the last couple of years (or more) rebuilt bikes have consistently sold for more than original bikes.
I'm guessing it's a generational thing, the Boomers are probably the main buyers, and they have more money than time on their hands.
They don't want a completely original bike that's been sitting for years, they want a bike that's been freshened up, starts and runs and goes without too much drama, because they don't really know how many years of jumping on a motorbike they have left in them.  And they are old enough to know what problems '100% original' can bring.
What they don't want (or don't have the ability to do) is be stuck in the garage for the next 2 years stripping a bike down and rebuilding it.  Gen X'ers are ok with that stuff because they aren't staring down the mortality barrel just yet.
There are 100% original 72/73 bikes that can be started and ridden down the road at any time with complete confidence, but the only time you will see them for sale is when they are pryed out of the owners' cold dead hands.

You've made a lot of assumptions without much (if any) evidence.  Here is another scenario, admittedly without much evidence either.  There aren't many completely original bikes left nowadays and most of them are in the hands of serious collectors who seldom put them up for sale.  The market for Z1's is quite robust though, so people who want one have to settle for a shell covered with reproduction parts.  That's OK, mainly because most buyers mistakenly believe their newly acquired Z1 is original.  And why would they not believe that?  On first glass it looks original, and for them that's what counts.  A serious builder/collector knows about things like date codes, speedometer styles and fonts.  He is aware of the changes that were made over the months and years the bikes were manufactured and his parts will match accordingly.  His bike not only looks original from a distance but it also looks original to any other knowledgeable builder.  The date codes on wheels, discs switches etc will all match with the day the bike left the factory.  

I'm lucky enough to know a few of the best Z1 restorers in the world.  One even lives in Oz.  He restores his bikes to original equipment specs and you can be assured they run just as well as the day they were manufactured.  If he was selling and I was looking I would pay a lot more than $50k for one of his machines.  I quickly admit though that I'm not looking and I know he's not selling.  
 

Ok, here's my "proof'
January Mecum auction
1973 Z1 rebuilt bike - $55k USD
1973 Z1 original bike - $32k USD.
A typical pattern that has been occurring around the world in recent times.
 

Had this conversation with another very knowledgeable Zedhead a few days ago who was at Mecum.  He went over that bike as carefully as possible without being able to do any exploratory disassembly. Not much OEM, but lots of bling - shiny baubles that are facsimiles of genuine OEM  parts.  His take? 

Shiny sells. 

Original Z1's with correct parts and a little honest patina of age were selling for $20K to $30K less. Those are likely more representative of actual value of Z1's, but don't have that "Oooo... Pretty!!!" effect synonymous with new parts, albeit not genuine OEM items from Mama Kaw.

And then there's this; that bike was worth $52K to someone.   It was worth almost that to at least one other person, and maybe more than one, again and again and again until the bidding war was won.  That would seem to support blackozvet's position that there are some who just see value in perceived newness, originality be damned.  After all, perception is​ reality for many people.  And..., we're back to bling & shiny baubles sells.

Seems like shallow value to us.

Our feel is that the $52K bike is an outlier.  Not unlike averaging, wherein the single highest and single lowest values are discarded, then the balance of the values are averaged. 

If it makes the buyer happy,  that's what counts for him/her, especially if it was bought to reconnect with memories of younger Ridin' days past. Or, perhaps the buyer has a terminal illness & wants that one last fling with the then-unobtainable dream bike of his youth.  What price happiness? 

 If, however,  it was bought with the idea of being an investment,  that looks like a losing proposition to us vs an original bike with some honest patina.  It's only original once.

Good Ridin'
slmjim & Z1BEBE

slmjim+Z1BEBE wrote:

Had this conversation with another very knowledgeable Zedhead a few days ago who was at Mecum.  He went over that bike as carefully as possible without being able to do any exploratory disassembly. Not much OEM, but lots of bling  - shiny baubles that are facsimiles of genuine OEM  parts.  His take? 
Shiny sells. 
OriginaOrZ1's with correct parts and a little honest patina of age were selling for $20K to $30K less. Those are likely more representative of actual value of Z1's, but don't have that "Oooo... Pretty!!!" effect synonymous with new parts, albeit not genuine OEM items  from Mama Kaw.
And then there's this; that bike was worth $52K to someone.   It was worth almost that to at least one other person, and maybe more than one, again  and again and again until the bidding war was won.  That would seem to support blackozvet's position that there are some who just see value in perceived newness, originality be damned.  After all, perception is​ reality for many people.  And..., we're back to bling & shiny baubles sells.
Seems like shallow value to us.
Our feel is that the $52K bike is an outlier.  Not unlike averaging, wherein the single highest and single lowest values are discarded,  then the balance of the values are averaged. 
If it makes the buyer happy,  that's what counts for him/her, especially if it was bought to reconnect with memories of younger Ridin' days past. Or, perhaps the buyer has a terminal illness & wants that one last fling with the then-unobtainable dream bike of his youth.  What price happiness? 
 If, however,  it was bought with the idea of being an investment,  that looks like a losing proposition to us vs an original bike with some honest patina.  It's only original once.
Good Ridin'
slmjim & Z1BEBE

I wasn't trying to start an argument with Hardrockminer, just trying to say that currently this is the reality. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.  
There are probably several reasons why demand and prices have gone up for the rebuilds (or the "bling bikes") and your right in that some people want that newness, some of these bling bikes look as good, or even better, than the day they were sitting on the showroom floor brand new, as far as the people who are paying the big bucks are concerned. 
 

They look as good or better to many people who don't know how they should really look.  The people who are buying them are buying nostalgia.  That's fine, it's their money and they get to decide how much they want to pay for it.  But if someone really wants a bike that looks original......shouldn't it actually look original?  

The fact that one bike sold for $50k indicates a higher level of interest in Z1's.  But a higher level of interest isn't the same as a higher level of knowledge.  There aren't a lot of people with a higher level of knowledge and I doubt any of them would have bid on that bike.  If the new owner is happy with his purchase that's all that's important.  What he did for the rest of the world is to raise interest in Z1's to a new level.  I'm seeing it in the recent asking prices already.

hardrockminer wrote:

They look as good or better to many people who don't know how they should really look.  The people who are buying them are buying nostalgia.  That's fine, it's their money and they get to decide how much they want to pay for it.  But if someone really wants a bike that looks original......shouldn't it actually look original?  

The fact that one bike sold for $50k indicates a higher level of interest in Z1's.  But a higher level of interest isn't the same as a higher level of knowledge.  There aren't a lot of people with a higher level of knowledge and I doubt any of them would have bid on that bike.  If the new owner is happy with his purchase that's all that's important.  What he did for the rest of the world is to raise interest in Z1's to a new level.  I'm seeing it in the recent asking prices already.

Great if you are a current owner but it push's the price out of reach for many true enthusiasts which is a shame

Wookie58 wrote:

hardrockminer wrote:

They look as good or better to many people who don't know how they should really look.  The people who are buying them are buying nostalgia.  That's fine, it's their money and they get to decide how much they want to pay for it.  But if someone really wants a bike that looks original......shouldn't it actually look original?  

The fact that one bike sold for $50k indicates a higher level of interest in Z1's.  But a higher level of interest isn't the same as a higher level of knowledge.  There aren't a lot of people with a higher level of knowledge and I doubt any of them would have bid on that bike.  If the new owner is happy with his purchase that's all that's important.  What he did for the rest of the world is to raise interest in Z1's to a new level.  I'm seeing it in the recent asking prices already.

Great if you are a current owner but it push's the price out of reach for many true enthusiasts which is a shame




 

That's been happening for some time, not just on whole bikes but, as we all know, also on NOS, OEM parts.  Then there's the bike drain happening in the US, wherein certain bikes are highly sought after by brokers, only to be shipped overseas & acquired by deep-pocket buyers from other countries.  We see that as contributing mightily to rising prices on Z1's and certain other bikes.  That's also making it far more difficult for not only us, er... more mature (read older) enthusiasts, but more so for the younger vintage enthusiasts who are needed to carry on the tradition of caring for our beloved old bikes.  It does a disservice to us, our old bikes, and, the vintage MC hobby in general if it becomes a rich person's game, pricing budding young enthusiasts out of the arena.

We're curious if the $52K Z1 is staying in the US or leaving for ports unknown.

Good Ridin'
slmjim & Z1BEBE

Wookie58 wrote:

Great if you are a current owner but it push's the price out of reach for many true enthusiasts which is a shame

Perhaps, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm an enthusiast of old Rolls, but unfortunately they are out of my price range. 

There are plenty of old bikes out there for true enthusiasts.  The Suzuki GS series are still low priced and the bikes were popular enough to warrant a decent parts market.  The Yamaha Virago series are also low priced.  At least here in Canada.

Frankly I found the continuing interest in the price on that Z1 to be a bit overblown.  The PO is probably the only person to ever make money on a rebuild, and I would venture that he never expected to see it go that high.  I'm glad somebody made a little money off this racket.  I certainly haven't.

slmjim+Z1BEBE wrote:

 

We're curious if the $52K Z1 is staying in the US or leaving for ports unknown.

Good Ridin'
slmjim & Z1BEBE

From earlier in this thread, tfh903 (profile indicates Pacific Time Zone) said "I personally know the buyer, he is not rich, it took a large amount of his savings to win the bike. I'm sure that it will be on the road as soon as it arrives. This bike is to replace the one he was riding when it was in a "crash-n-burn" (literally burned car and bike) about 3 1/2 years ago. He has been looking for one since wreck, found a lot of scams and several missed deals. Got tired of looking."

Looks like it's staying and going to be ridden. 

corndog wrote:

people want that newness, some of these bling bikes look as good, or even better, than the day they were sitting on the showroom floor brand new, as far as the people who are paying the big bucks are concerned. 

 

But this is not what a showroom bike looks like though. These are over polished, glossy, with the wrong hardware, wrong turn signals/lenses, bulbs, wires, rubber. It is so far from what a showroom bike would/so/could look like. Beauty is only skin deep as the say. As Slmjim says, we hope this wasn’t bought as an investment. 

But this is not what a showroom bike looks like though. These are over polished, glossy, with the wrong hardware, wrong turn signals/lenses, bulbs, wires, rubber. It is so far from what a showroom bike would/so/could look like. Beauty is only skin deep as the say. As Slmjim says, we hope this wasn’t bought as an investment. 

That is your personal preference, you like the original bike.  There is a market for that.
Some people like bling bikes, there is a market for that.
I know the difference between kosher original and bling repop on a Z1 - but I could never build a 100% original bike, just couldn't do it.  Thats just my personal preference.  If someone said they would pay me to rebuild their Z1 100% original, yeah I could do it, because it isn't mine, its theirs and that's their choice.