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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 29 Jul 2016 16:02 #736644

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By Atlamillias: The airbox isn't in any repairable state due to corrosion caused by conventional batteries.

That's strange; it looks different than the stock one i had to chuck. The ducts on mine also need replaced as they were also damaged.

I guess your old airbox could've been from an earlier 750-Twin. As for the ducts some guys make them out of radiator hose or rubber plumbing couplings. In some cases you have to get 2-3 sizes, then cut donuts to make up any difference in the diameter. I think this will be a little hard to do an the 750-CSR, compared to my 650 for example. but maybe worth consideration.

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 31 Jul 2016 17:26 #736850

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Kray-Z wrote: Atlamillias -

Now that I know it is a twin, and what carbs you have stock (a linked / paired set of Mikuni BS-34 CV's - CV means "Constant Velocity"), and what carbs you have new (individual, single pull cable Mikuni VM28's, which are a round slide "smooth bore" carburetor), I can more accurately answer some of your questions!

First - carb spacing is typically referring to the distance, measured center to center, between multiple carburetors when they are solidly mounted together in a set or "brace", as with most 4 - cylinder engine's stock carb sets and like your stock BS34's. The term "carb spacing" does not apply to your individually mounted VM28's.

Second - "smooth bore" carburetors refers to carbs that do not use a butterfly type valve to control how much air enters the engine intake port. If you look at the engine side of the BS34's, you will see a round disk (this is the butterfly valve) mounted to a horizontal throttle shaft with two screws that almost completely blocks the airflow through the carb when the throttle is closed. When you pull the throttle cable to wide open, the butterfly valve rotates, opening, thus allowing more air to flow into the engine intake port. Even at wide open throttle, however, the butterfly valve restricts airflow - some of the carb throat area is still blocked because the butterfly valve and throttle shaft can not get out of the way of the incoming air and this impedes airflow. If you pull the throttle cable of a smooth bore carburetor , like your VM28's, wide open, the needle slide (which acts as the "throttle valve" on this type of carburetor) gets pulled upward into the top of the carburetor and completely out of he way of the incoming airflow, leaving only the relatively small area of the needle itself to impede the incoming airflow. You can look pretty clearly straight through a smooth bore carb when it is at wide open throttle! This is the reason why a smooth bore carb allows an engine to make more torque and power than a butterfly valve carb.

A CV carb uses a butterfly valve and relies on a vacuum chamber above the needle slide to open the slide and raise the needle. The vacuum is created (and increased) at the inlet (air box) end of the carb when the velocity of incoming air increases as the throttle is opened and engine speed is increasing. A spring is used to push the needle slide back down when the throttle is closed, and there is no mechanical connection between the slide's movement and the throttle cable. The "CV" type carb can't be a smooth bore, as without the butterfly valve, the rider would not be able to control the amount of air entering the intake port. At a constant inlet air velocity (constant throttle opening and engine rpm's) , the position of the slide stabilizes (hovers), hence the name...

Third - there are two shapes of needle slides common to both CV and smooth bore carbs - round and flat slides. Both your CV BS34's and the smooth bore VM28's are round slide carbs. Round slides have been around longer and are better in most street bike applications than flat slides. Racers prefer flat slides because they can give quicker and more precise throttle control and performance. One of the big disadvantages of flat slides is that they are prone to "sticking" to the carb bodies when engine vacuum or even high intake air velocity presses them hard against the pathway they move up and down in. Unlike round slides, where there is usually a large spring that pushes directly down on the slide, flat slides rely on a mechanical linkage with an external spring to return the slides to the closed position, making the problem worse. That is why using flat slide smooth bores like Mikuni RS34's or TM33's requires the use of a push / pull throttle and cable assembly (or a very stiff slide return spring that would make holding the throttle open for long periods very tiring and painful). One cable opens the throttles (slides) like usual, while the other cable closes them. That way if the slide sticks, the rider can still force ably close the slides with the twist grip - much safer than having a run-away bike! A push pull throttle is likewise commonly used (and highly recommended) with multi cylinder (3, 4, or 6 cylinder bikes) round slide smooth bore carbs that are bolted together with a common throttle linkage between the carbs, as a set and used on a street motorcycle - for safety reasons.

Because your VM28's are individually mounted to the engine (and are cable pulled round slide smooth bores), you can only use a single throttle cable (split into two near the carbs), so the point of a push / pull throttle cable assembly doesn't apply . I would only advise that for street use on a bike with no more than two cylinders, however...and be sure the cables move freely and the slides snap back closed firmly when the throttle is released before attempting to ride the bike...

There were quite a few of the Twin 750 LTD's around my area back in the late 80's, but I didn't even know there was a CSR version! I would often see adds in the local printed classifieds that read "198X KZ750 for sale" and see an asking price far below what a GPz750 or four cylinder KZ750-Whatever was worth at the time. I would call, sometimes even go to look at the bike, only to find out it was a twin, never having thought I would / should have asked first.... :pinch:


Thank you very much for all of the information, it was very detailed! And it probably would have helped if i myself were more.... descriptive.

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 31 Jul 2016 17:30 #736851

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martin_csr wrote:

By Atlamillias: The airbox isn't in any repairable state due to corrosion caused by conventional batteries.

That's strange; it looks different than the stock one i had to chuck. The ducts on mine also need replaced as they were also damaged.

I guess your old airbox could've been from an earlier 750-Twin. As for the ducts some guys make them out of radiator hose or rubber plumbing couplings. In some cases you have to get 2-3 sizes, then cut donuts to make up any difference in the diameter. I think this will be a little hard to do an the 750-CSR, compared to my 650 for example. but maybe worth consideration.


I'm definately not against giving this a try. If it means not having "used" ones I'll give it a go.

Im really trying to replace stuff with "New" if i can, just because I'm new to this, and i dont really know what to expect out of a bike that's 30 years old. I could have very well started riding, assuming that any noise, rattling, vibration of anything of the sort was normal due to my inexperience. Although, things like an airbox i wouldn't mind buying used (not like I'm going to find a new one anyways!). By doing stuff like this, I can learn about everything individually, and hopefully learn to tell the difference rather quickly between a good and bad experience.

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Last edit: by Atlamillias.

Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 31 Jul 2016 17:55 #736855

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No eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationAirbox possibilities:



Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 01 Aug 2016 16:45 #736988

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Yeah, I was going to include pictures with my detailed post to your questions to illustrate all the concepts, but the internet has plenty already. Just look up images for Mikuni RS34's to see what a flat slide smooth bores looks like.

I am still suggesting if you can, stick with your BS34's and a stock air box and filter. There really won't be much gain from swapping to smooth bore carbs, and you will likely lose performance if you delete the stock air box. Only one of my bikes (an '83 GPz1100) doesn't have an air box, because it was originally fuel injected and now has carbs (re-jetted BS34's, coincidentally), so until I build a custom air box for it, I'm using individual K&N's. I can tell you, if anything it is slower than a stock bike because of it....it only runs 5 mph faster than my stock '81 KZ1000CSR in the 1/4 mile - pretty lame for a big GPz!

It might take a while for you to track down a complete 750LTD or CSR air box, maybe even piece by piece, but you will save yourself a fair amount of aggravation by leaving the intake system stock. At least that way, following the tuning and jetting specifications in the service manual should give you a good running engine. Going with different carbs or even individual filters on the BS34's means you will be in uncharted territory!

If you want to try the VM28's in the meantime, get K&N oval filters and their filter cleaning kit to go with the carbs. You may find the myriad of jetting and carb settings very frustrating, however. And do take your time to be sure everything is working well enough to ensure your safety before riding the bike with any modifications.

Good luck, and happy wrenching!
2-04 R1, 81 CSR1000, 81 LTD1000, 2-83 GPz1100, 3-79CBX, 81 CBX, 3-XS650, 84 Venture, +parts
Quote "speed costs money...how fast do you want to go?" (Which Z movie?)
Universal formula for how many motorcycles one should own = n + 1, where n is how many motorcycles you own right now....

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 02 Aug 2016 16:23 #737139

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Kray-Z VM28's ARE NOT smooth bore carb's the only VM's that are is the VM29's and VM33's.
1980 KZ650 F1
ZX750A1 motor.
Wiseco 810cc kit.
Zukiworks racing ported head.
VM 29 smooth bore's.
Dyna 2000 Ign. w/Dyna mini coil's
APE cylinder stud's and nut's.
APE valve spring's.
APE Track King clutch.
V/H KZ1000 sidewinder.
3.5x18 laced to a KZ1000 disk hub.
150/60/18 Shinko 006 Podium.
63" wheel base.

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 02 Aug 2016 16:29 #737140

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Correct. What makes them smooth bore is #87 in the pic.
Steve

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 03 Aug 2016 10:25 #737233

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Yes, you are right, sorry. I stand corrected...and I should know better, damn it!

This reminds me of the local controversy about the naming of a sport fishing fish species we have where I live - people incorrectly calling wall - eye "pickerel", which annoys me in the extreme for some reason....

Back to carbs - I never looked at that feature before. In fact, I always had assumed all the round and flat slide carbs w/o butterfly valves were clean (smooth) thru the slide area (I've only recently seen RS, TM, and VM26 and VM29 Mikuni's on the bench, and never really paid much attention to the slide bores).

I assumed all the VM's were smooth straight thru, like the 29's, but the VM28's have the slot/bore for the slide going all the way thru, which creates turbulence...o.k.

Now that I'm aware of this, I see that the RS series flat slides are listed as a true smooth bores, while the TM33's flat-slides are only "smooth bore effect" performance carbs,...too bad, I planned to put the TM's on my GPz so the BS34's temporarily on it can go back onto the CSR they belong to. I'll still use the TM's, but I am disappointed they are not true smooth bores.

I've seen a few more Keihin CR Specials than Mikunis...being a Honda person up till a few years ago. They were the only performance carbs we ever used on the big CB's. No one I knew could afford installing CR's (or Mikuni's for that matter) on their CBX!
2-04 R1, 81 CSR1000, 81 LTD1000, 2-83 GPz1100, 3-79CBX, 81 CBX, 3-XS650, 84 Venture, +parts
Quote "speed costs money...how fast do you want to go?" (Which Z movie?)
Universal formula for how many motorcycles one should own = n + 1, where n is how many motorcycles you own right now....

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 03 Aug 2016 12:06 #737248

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So, assuming I was to swap carbs out, would the VM28's be adequate replacements for the BS34's? Airbox or otherwise?

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 03 Aug 2016 12:40 #737250

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Atlamillias wrote: So, assuming I was to swap carbs out, would the VM28's be adequate replacements for the BS34's? Airbox or otherwise?


Yes, the round slide VM28's with oval K&N's should be adequate, about equivalent flow capacity to the CV BS34's. If tuned to match your engine, they should perform as well, maybe slightly better overall, than the CV's. One thing to consider is that even on the BS34 equipped KZ1000's, it is a good performance upgrade to switch to VM29's....smaller venturi size yes, but no butterfly valve.

Again, though, I would try to stay with the stock parts if you can....way less hassle and grief.
2-04 R1, 81 CSR1000, 81 LTD1000, 2-83 GPz1100, 3-79CBX, 81 CBX, 3-XS650, 84 Venture, +parts
Quote "speed costs money...how fast do you want to go?" (Which Z movie?)
Universal formula for how many motorcycles one should own = n + 1, where n is how many motorcycles you own right now....

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 03 Aug 2016 13:00 #737253

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To be honest, I was disappointed in my VM 33's. Yeah they work good but not earth shattering. My 28's lasted 20 years with no problems. The CV carbs are more forgiving in elevation changes and unless you're racing for $$ or pinks, they are great.
Steve

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Changing Stock CV Carbs for VM 03 Aug 2016 16:19 #737301

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swest wrote: To be honest, I was disappointed in my VM 33's. Yeah they work good but not earth shattering. My 28's lasted 20 years with no problems. The CV carbs are more forgiving in elevation changes and unless you're racing for $$ or pinks, they are great.
Steve


The 33's always had a bad rep for street "driveability", if I remember those conversations correctly. The VM29's always seemed to be preferred over the 33's if your engine was 1000 cc or less. All the non-drag racing riders I knew preferred the Keihin CR Specials over any of the Mikuni's. The drag bike guys told me that I should also try Lectrons - one even offered to let me borrow a set, but I haven't done that (yet). I stuck with carefully tuned CV Keihin's on my Hondas, not really having any practical alternatives with the CBX. I even have an untried CBX set made from two sets of larger CV's from CB900's.

Now that I'm building some KZ1000J/ GPz engines, I have several sets of Mikuni RS and TM's to choose from (trial efforts), as I don't much like working with the CV BS34's. I do like the stock VM26's on the old KZ650 - thankfully they have been easy to work with so far. And another KZR member is working on his own Micro squirt D.F.I. system - if he can get it to work, I'll be first in line to copy that!
2-04 R1, 81 CSR1000, 81 LTD1000, 2-83 GPz1100, 3-79CBX, 81 CBX, 3-XS650, 84 Venture, +parts
Quote "speed costs money...how fast do you want to go?" (Which Z movie?)
Universal formula for how many motorcycles one should own = n + 1, where n is how many motorcycles you own right now....

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