TOPIC:

On an inline 4 cylinder the two 'inside' cylinders are getting hotter air than the 'outside' filters too -

I never got the all-around, all-weather driveability with pods compared to the airbox - if only I could have my own dyno in my garage for fine tuning

loudhvx wrote: You will only notice this during light cruising, which is when you are typically at the leanest continuous running. .

Yeah..... my KZ-750 twin (California model) came with 40 pilots even though the rest of the world got 45. The 40 were for "reduced emissions". RAN TERRIBLE. Trying to cruise at a steady speed between about 35 and 40 in high gear it would always find just the right spot to start missing and bucking. kept taking it back to the dealer and getting nothing but double talk. A guy in the parts room took pity on me and clued me in.

Tumbleweeds wrote:

bluezbike wrote: Thanks for all the replies........this raises another question (and I hope this is not a thread snatch) what are the principles of using a wideband o2 , what is AFR and how does one use them to tune/jet carbs
At exactly 57 mph and at any speed over that I would lose a lot of power and it felt like carbs were running out of fuel or something....I recently took off the fairing you see in my avatar, I think it affected the airflow over the carbs and soon as I get it running again after the winter I will see what effect that had.

Patton, I am still laughing over your great comment and pic

If you do an internet search for "air fuel ratio" and wideband o2 sensors you will get more reading material than you can shake a stick at.

Do you have to weld in a bung? It would be to be able to use it to tune the bike then remove. I just bought a really expensive 4into1 from Werks and do not want to alter it. Using my old header will change tuning. Is there anyone that has of is doing this cheaply on a temp basis?

kaw-a-holic wrote:

Tumbleweeds wrote:

bluezbike wrote: Thanks for all the replies........this raises another question (and I hope this is not a thread snatch) what are the principles of using a wideband o2 , what is AFR and how does one use them to tune/jet carbs
At exactly 57 mph and at any speed over that I would lose a lot of power and it felt like carbs were running out of fuel or something....I recently took off the fairing you see in my avatar, I think it affected the airflow over the carbs and soon as I get it running again after the winter I will see what effect that had.

Patton, I am still laughing over your great comment and pic

If you do an internet search for "air fuel ratio" and wideband o2 sensors you will get more reading material than you can shake a stick at.

Do you have to weld in a bung? It would be to be able to use it to tune the bike then remove. I just bought a really expensive 4into1 from Werks and do not want to alter it. Using my old header will change tuning. Is there anyone that has of is doing this cheaply on a temp basis?

Yes, you typically would weld in a bung at the collector. After tuning, you put in a plug.
There are also systems where you attach the o2 sensor near the tail pipe and feed in a tube into the exhaust. They don't require welding in a bung. Being farther from the engine, they will use more heater current to keep the sensor hot, and there is more chance for dilution. I assume it works, but I don't know one way or the other if it is as good as a weld-in bung at the collector.

If I was going to go wideband, I would put a bung on each header.

If you read in the collector you could have lean and rich cylinders canceling each other out and appearing that all is well.

Tumbleweeds wrote: If I was going to go wideband, I would put a bung on each header.

If you read in the collector you could have lean and rich cylinders canceling each other out and appearing that all is well.

The thing is, It's not very convenient. The o2 sensor sticks out pretty far, and the wiring has a sheath which should not be kinked. The sensor gets fresh air through this sheath. So it all sticks out like 4 to 6 inches with the wiring.
The sensors must also be mounted in a slight downward angle to prevent water collection.
Taking all that into consideration makes for a difficult juggling act with wires etc. so the tire won't hit any of it. There will be wires everywhere.

The key is to make sure all the carbs are cleaned and set identically, and eliminate all sources of vacuum leaks, and exhaust leaks.

Then always check the plugs closely and look for any slight differences.
Usually if there is a significant difference in one cylinder to another, you know from some other symptom... popping, plug color, uneven idle, hesitation at cruising, etc.

Either way, it's no worse than trouble shooting an odd cylinder without a wideband.

From my personal experience, there is always some level of driveability sacrificed when running pods, even when jetted "correctly". I have two '77's. One with an airbox, and one that currently has K&N's (bought it that way). The one with an airbox is stock and tired, but has much more low end than the bike with the "pods" on it. (That engine is also a tight, recently rebuilt, properly-jetted, and mildy-built 1075.) There is just a very noticable lag right off the line, until the bike gets moving and the RPM's build...sort of like a car with a turbo. It's really quite annoying on my drive to work, with all the stoplights. On the highway, they work well and have a really nice "woosh" sound to them when you get on it.... and yeah, they look nice. My conclusion? I recently bought another airbox off of Ebay, that I reckon will end up staying on the bike once I install it. It's all trial and error, and preference. Don't be surprised if you put a bunch of work into "making it run right with pods" only to find that you're still not super happy with how it runs when you're all done.

A bung in each header will not gain you that much power increase, certainly not enough to make a difference on a street bike.
If you choose to weld in a bung, get a stainless steel plug for it so it does not rust in place.
I used an Innovate Exhaust Clamp inserted in the back of the exhaust can.

Yes, it should be mentioned, that while the bike is every bit as driveable in terms of smoothness with no hiccups (once jetted properly), using pods does alter the power band. In my experience it moves it up in the RPM range.

It's similar to the difference between riding a standard KZ550 versus a Gpz550, just not that drastic. The Gpz's cams put the power up top. The tradeoff is that the standard KZ has more low end. For riding with a passenger, the KZ is easier to deal with at stoplights etc. But going WOT on the highway, the Gpz is more spirited.

So that part of it is personal preference for sure. I have one bike with an airbox, one with pods, and one that has been back and forth a couple times. If I'm just commuting to work, in stop and go traffic, the airbox is probably the better choice since there isn't going to be any fun anyway.

Loudhvx - What O2 sensor/equipment are you running? I would like to instal one on gpwerks exhaust to help in tuning.

I bought the original Innovate LC-1 bundled with a really nice analog gauge, several years ago, and at the time, it had the best ratings for accuracy, and the price was really good. I haven't looked at others recently, but this system is so good I don't feel I need anything better.

It is single channel, so you are sensing all four combined exhausts, so it will have to be a 4-into-1 system. Though you could use two sensors and two controllers for a dual exahust, and toggle the display to see both, or use a dual display.

I like using an analog display so I don't have to stare at the numbers. I like to see the needle swing out of the corner of my eye during a hard launch to get a feel for where the AFR ends up, rather than having to stare at a digital readout.

After tuning I remove the whole system.

Several of us on KZR are using it, and so far I think everyone really likes it.
www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php

The LC-2 is the digital-output version of the LC-1, but is likely very similar. And it looks like they have a new LC-1 version that is smaller and is built into the cable. The output can be digital or analog to control the display. The analog output is fine for me since I prefer an analog gauge to view the numbers. If you are datalogging, then maybe a digital output would be preferred, but any good datalogger will have analog inputs (along with digital) anyway. Communicating digitally introduces compatibility issues that analog does not have. The LC-1 analog outputs can be configured to many different output voltages as required by any gauge or datalogger.

Innovate has many options and other controllers for their systems, but some of the more elaborate ones had problems, so I stayed away from them (plus they cost a lot more).

The LC-1 is very simple, and basic. but it can be expanded and used with data loggers and any type of display unit, so it is a very good, low-cost, starting point.

If you want to read up more on widebands, but want to work on your exhaust, just get a weld-in bung for the exhaust, with a screw-in plug.

What you need to know is that the o2 sensor has to point slightly downward from horizontal or more downward. It should not be horizontal or pointing up. Collection of water destroys it, so it needs to point down so the water drips out of it. Also, be aware the wiring sheath that connects to it is fairly rigid. It's not just wire, fresh air must also flows through it so it can't be kinked. You want the sensor as close to the collector as possible so it can use exhaust heat to stay hot, rather than electric current to stay hot.

A google search for wideband and KZrider will probably return a lot of in-depth threads on the subject.

Here's my blurry, dirty data logging

I ran duel pods for years. Not too many problems but when I kept loosing against Miller's bike at high speed, he told me to put a air box back on. I did and it stopped starving for air at high speed and flat spots went away. He had Del Orto adjustable venture carbs with pods, I had my stock 28mm Miks. When I put on my 33's, I put on a KZ 900 air box and made boots to fit the KZ box. The only problem I have now is high altitude. It runs like a dog above 3000 FT. Jetting is predictable and I don't go above that mark except when visiting my daughter or going to Central CA.
I guess the bottom line is, if you like playing with the carbs and don't mind the time and effort, pods can work for you.
I just like to set it and ride.
Steve