TOPIC:

otakar wrote:

Actually it is not more concentrated if you read the results and it is A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE.

I didn't personally test it, but the results published on the BITOG site (Bob is the oil guy) said that ZDDPlus was more concentrated than Redline. I have not seen any data on Lucas. If there is actual data done by an independent test place, I would be interested in reading it.

bountyhunter wrote:

T_Dub wrote:

The oil people have been looking into replacing ZDDP since 1992 or even earlier, I'd imagine they've got it right by now.

No, they have not. The truth is, the oil companies are being forced to eliminate ZDDP to supposedly increase the life of the cat converters in cars. They basically threw older flat tappet engines under the bus because most modern cars use rollers. New oils are inferioir for use in older engines.

The SAE papers on ZDDP that have been presented at the lubrication conferences every year since the early 90's would disagree with you.

i have a couple of engines going together this weekend so i have some of the lucas stuff coming tomorrow also i bought a jug of rottella 15-40 what would be the best mix for this for the first running of these new motors.

T_Dub wrote:

bountyhunter wrote:

T_Dub wrote:

The oil people have been looking into replacing ZDDP since 1992 or even earlier, I'd imagine they've got it right by now.

No, they have not. The truth is, the oil companies are being forced to eliminate ZDDP to supposedly increase the life of the cat converters in cars. They basically threw older flat tappet engines under the bus because most modern cars use rollers. New oils are inferioir for use in older engines.

The SAE papers on ZDDP that have been presented at the lubrication conferences every year since the early 90's would disagree with you.

No, actually the many posts I have read regarding the engines which suffered camshaft damage because they ran "new oil" without zinc would prove otherwise. The zinc was and is necessary in flat tappet engines and the new oils are not as good for those applications. In case of newly rebuilt engines, the failure can be catastrophic and immediate. In a broken in engine, you just get accelerated wear. But, neither of those is desirable when they are being sacrificed to prolong cat converters which bikes don't use. It's a free country, if you think zinc free oil is good to run in older engines, go ahead and run it in yours.

timebomb33 wrote:

i have a couple of engines going together this weekend so i have some of the lucas stuff coming tomorrow also i bought a jug of rottella 15-40 what would be the best mix for this for the first running of these new motors.

If you are using Rotella at 1250ppm than 2oz added to the crankcase is an additional 700ppm to put you at almost 2000ppm which puts you way into the safe zone. I would do that for the first oil fill (First 500 miles) If you keep on using Rotella than after that 1oz per oil fill will be very good which will keep you at about 1600ppm

thanks otto i sent you a pm. i'm just waiting to hear back from you.

If ZDDP was not so important than why is there so much of it in all racing oils and modern Motorcycle oils????? Basically all "off road use" oils have it in copious quantities. This just tells me that this is another DOT FUBAR.

timebomb33 wrote:

thanks otto i sent you a pm. i'm just waiting to hear back from you.

The PM did not go threw.

I have to clarify where I'm coming from. I've gotten off my original point.

What I'm saying is that I will use oils specifically developed for motorcycles, no Rotella T, no anything else. Just motorcycle oils. Car oils were developed for cars, which have moved on to roller cams primarily. Bikes haven't, so the oil still has to be developed to deal with these issues. Therefore the amount of ZDDP in these oils is irrelevant since these oils were designed for machines with our style of camshaft.

I'm not saying you shouldn't add these additives to car oil, I'm just saying that the bike oils will be fine, ZDDP or no. I'm 100% certain that if new bike oils didn't either have enough ZDDP or something to replace it, and the problem is as rampant as you guys say it is, 9 out of 10 bikes which come off the showroom floor would have trashed cams before their first service interval.

This is also not a true statement. Because all these new bikes have 16 valve heads they have lighter springs due to much lower reciprocating Wt. on them and also have lower lift than we use because they have a much larger combined surface area than in our bikes.

FYI, here's the concentration data on the Redline additive:

www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1

Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)


Increases of antiwear per quart by using one bottle (16oz.): Oil capacity:
Phosphorus Zinc
15 quarts 610 ppm 736 ppm
12 quarts 763 ppm 920 ppm
10 quarts 915 ppm 1104 ppm
8 quarts 1145 ppm 1380 ppm
7 quarts 1307 ppm 1577 ppm
6 quarts 1525 ppm 1840 ppm
5 quarts 1830 ppm 2208 ppm

It takes a full 16 ounce bottle of the stuff to get up to about 2k PPM in a standard oil change volume.


ZDDPlus give about the same concentration with only four ounces of fluid.

www.zddplus.com/


I could not find published concentration specs on the Lucas product.

otakar wrote:

If ZDDP was not so important than why is there so much of it in all racing oils and modern Motorcycle oils????? Basically all "off road use" oils have it in copious quantities. This just tells me that this is another DOT FUBAR.

Thats a good question. I have in front of me a paper penned by some guys in 1996 looking into ZDDP antiwear characteristics. Turns out certain ZDDP's can actually increase friction and therefor wear. Plus, higher quantities past a certain point doesn't really cause any appreciable benefit. I'm still hunting, thats all I've got conclusively for now.