TOPIC:

Rotella is formulated Rotella. At first there was some talk that the formulation was changed along with the the automotive oils but that turned not to be true. As long as it is Rotella it will have the same formulation no matter where it comes from. Even though there has been some reduction there is still a significant amount of ZDDP in Rotella. Compared to virtually none in automotive oils. This is why it must still be fortified with a ZDDP additive. By % weight it is .140/.130 Zn/Ph and not the .25/.21 it should be.

T_Dub wrote:

So you use this stuff in all of your oil changes? And during break in?

www.valco-cp.com/torco.htm

Oils & additives are one of the most debated topics on any engine building relate forum.

Joe Gibbs Break In Oil is another option. Your local speed shop probably carries it. It's not cheap.

It's flat tappet cam failure that is the biggest concern with break in. I have seen failed cams from just about every manufacturer at one time or another, cars and bikes.

Flat Tappet Cam Failures have been on the rise since they took the additives out of the oils.

If you're running GPz 750 cams, use GPz buckets. Some of the early 650 buckets had issues.

There's also the option of DLC coatings.

I have been doing a lot of research on this subject and have found out some interesting information. One little tidbit is that "Pennzoil Platinum" and Walmart "Super-Tech" synthetic are bottled on the same line. It is also possible that Rotella-T Synthetic is also. I have posed some strategic questions to Shell tech support and I am awaiting some answers.

I'm looking into it now too. I just ordered a couple papers from SAE on the subject. Just from reading abstracts it looks like they've replaced ZDDP with cleaner, better performing additives.

T_Dub wrote:

cleaner, better performing .

Those are usually mutually exclusive...

Usually, but these oil engineers are good. ZDDP will gunk up eventually, the new additives last longer allowing longer drain times and they also don't mess with your cat. Anyways, I'll have the whole story tomorrow when those papers arrive, I got a couple that investigate the boundary lubrication characteristics and the thermal breakdown properties of the ZDDP and some of the cleaner additives.

I don't trust this "you should use it because its not there any more" argument. I'm absolutely certain modern motorcycle oils are better than old ones, the engines today have to withstand much greater speeds as well as more aggressive lift profiles. If I had the money I'd get a cam and a tappet from an old bike and a new bike and analyze them in the lab, but I'm not buying that stuff just to destroy them.

The oil people have been looking into replacing ZDDP since 1992 or even earlier, I'd imagine they've got it right by now.

Well, I got my first bit of info and here it is right from Shell

"We have a product that is called Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil and is available in SAE 50, 60 and 25W-50.
It has approximately 1800-2000 ppm of zinc additive for extra wear protection. Other engine oils with comparable anti wear protection would include Shell Rotella T 15W-40 and Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40."

I will call them up and continue the emails to milk them for more info.

Cool, I think I know where to track down a relatively new cam and tappets to test too now that I think of it. And I can test my old KZ650 cams. We'll get to the bottom of this.

Just got off the phone with Pennzoil and was told that the the "Long Life" and the "Rotella-T" have 1250PPM and the "Platinum" and "Walmart Synth" have 850PPM. This means that the Walmart Synthetic which I have been using for years @ $12/5Qts with 2oz of Lucas additive will bring the crank case oil to 1475+PPM which is sufficient for any medium performance motor with mid lift cams and intermediate springs. For extra protection the Rotella-T is even better but for stock motors it would be perfect out of the bottle. Apparently the 1800PPM is made for NASCAR racing specifications.

School Teacher wrote:

so if i was to buy say diesel truck oil where do i look to know i am getting enough?

The MSDSs usually have the amount of ZINC DIALKYL DITHIOPHOSPHATE listed as a percent. However, the zinc/phosphate info isn't always provided: the MSDS that I found for Shell Rotella-T didn't show the ZDDP content.

I checked a bunch of MSDS last year & found that the oils marketed for diesel engines have about the same amount of ZDDP as motorcycle oils. The amount does vary & some of them will only list the amount as <2.5% or something like that. Chevron Delo shows theirs as having 1-2%. Valvoline PREMIUM BLUE® SAE 15W-40 DIESEL ENGINE OIL lists more ZDDP than their VALVOLINE® 4-STROKE MOTORCYCLE OIL CV 20W-50.

There are a lot of specialty (Motorcycle and racing) oils that have between 1800ppm and 2200ppm in them. I just refuse to pay $12-$15/qt for them when there is a way around it and get the same or better protection. With the blended Walmart oil and the proper amount of additive oil comes to about $4 a quart in synthetic and $3 a quart in dyno. Rotella is about a buck more respectively. I have a lot of bikes and even if you change the oil once a season on each, it is money better spent. I believe in spending money for a quality product but I do not believe in throwing it away. I also talked to the Pennzoil tech support about Hi Millage oils, because in one of the previous forums this was asked about but not covered. I was told that the ONLY difference between regular oil and Hi-Millage oil is extra detergents and seal conditioners. The anti-ware package is exactly the same. I have come up with a blend now that will give me about 1700ppm of ZDDP and the anti-ware product plus sludge and varnish prevention that I want at the right price of about $4-$5 a quart. Using "Super-Tech@" synthetic as a base.

T_Dub wrote:

The oil people have been looking into replacing ZDDP since 1992 or even earlier, I'd imagine they've got it right by now.

No, they have not. The truth is, the oil companies are being forced to eliminate ZDDP to supposedly increase the life of the cat converters in cars. They basically threw older flat tappet engines under the bus because most modern cars use rollers. New oils are inferioir for use in older engines.