'79 1000 won't turn over due to timing

Hey, I searched through the engine forum a bit, but if this has already been addressed please let me know. I recently put new rings on a poor compression engine and got a "new" set of cylinders. I have it reassembled up to the head and everything turns fine and moves freely internally, however when I attempt to reinstall the cam shafts the crank no longer turns through. I followed the one top end reassembly video I found on YouTube and the best I can figure is that the forward cam markings are different between my engine and the one in the video, but haven't found any information regarding the markings on my cam. I'm ready to give up. Thanks for any advice you have. 

Don't force it trying to turn it over!  do you have a factory service manual (FSM) for your model?  They are available on amazon and ebay, or you can access it here on kzrider.  I had a similar issue earlier this year with my Z1.  See the posts under "Help! Did I screw up my engine? Z1 refresh" in the engine section of the forum.  Between the replies I got and the FSM you should be all set.  There are a lot of very knowledgable guys on this forum willing to help.  Be sure to let us know what happens.

Scotty

Thanks so much Scotty! I do have a pdf of an FSM. I'll definitely check your post. Is the Z1 similar enough to the kz that it'll translate?

The procedure should be the same, numbers may be different.  FYI the FSM probably lists valve clearances around .002 and .004 (inches).  As I have learned from the guys here, that is too tight and should be larger.    

Scotty

TootMagoot wrote:

Thanks so much Scotty! I do have a pdf of an FSM. I'll definitely check your post. Is the Z1 similar enough to the kz that it'll translate?

The timing procedure is the same for all Z1/Z900 through Z1000 roller chain driven cams. I.E those engines with a kickstart.
Make sure cylinders 1+4 are at TDC.
Fit exhaust cam with timing arrow on the sprocket and it's camchain pin as close to the heads camcover gasket face as possible and lightly fit the exhaust cam caps ( fractionally above or below the gasket face is normal due to camchain wear or deck height variences).
Count 28 pins back from the pin above the timing arrow pin ( count the timing arrow pin as zero) and set the 28th pin at the 28th mark on the inlet sprocket then fit the inlet cam caps.
( An alternative is to count back 29 pins from the timing arrow pin which kawaski should have done to save confusion and countless mistimed engines )
Double check the arrow alignment to the head, check the pin count and then fit the top idler and camchain tensioner.
Once happy nip up the cam cap bolts, top idler bolts and tension the cam chain.
That should be job done.
 

zed1015 wrote:

TootMagoot wrote:

Thanks so much Scotty! I do have a pdf of an FSM. I'll definitely check your post. Is the Z1 similar enough to the kz that it'll translate?

The timing procedure is the same for all Z1/Z900 through Z1000 roller chain driven cams. I.E those engines with a kickstart.
Make sure cylinders 1+4 are at TDC.
Fit exhaust cam with timing arrow on the sprocket and it's camchain pin as close to the heads camcover gasket face as possible and lightly fit the exhaust cam caps ( fractionally above or below the gasket face is normal due to camchain wear or deck height variences).
Count 28 pins back from the pin above the timing arrow pin ( count the timing arrow pin as zero) and set the 28th pin at the 28th mark on the inlet sprocket then fit the inlet cam caps.
( An alternative is to count back 29 pins from the timing arrow pin which kawaski should have done to save confusion and countless mistimed engines )
Double check the arrow alignment to the head, check the pin count and then fit the top idler and camchain tensioner.
Once happy nip up the cam cap bolts, top idler bolts and tension the cam chain.
That should be job done.


 

Hope this next question is ok, trying to add to this thread not high jack it.

   Zed, every time anyone talks about timing cams, even in the FSM, nobody talks about how to treat the cam chain. Personally I have never set cams, how do you set the chain in relationships to the crankshaft and the exhaust cam? How do you keep the chain from falling off the crankshaft before/during intake cam placement? 

Easiest way I've found to keep tension on the chain is to put a bungee strap  through it and over the frame spine. 
Keeps the chain tight on the crank but allows you to insert the cams as the bungee stretches to maintain tension. 

Here is my method....

Plugs are out.  Camshafts are within reach.  Pocket flashlight and 17 mm wrench are in front of me.

I position myself on the right side of the bike.  I hold the chain taut in my left hand by spreading my fingers and rotate the engine to ensure the chain is on the crank sprocket.  Still holding the chain taut I set the T mark on the ignition.  (Sometimes I hold a flashlight in my teeth to see if I'm on the mark.)  Then I roll in the exhaust cam while still holding the chain taut.  If it's off the mark I will re-set it until it's on the mark.  Then I roll in the intake cam, trying to ensure that #4 cam lobe is facing #4 exhaust cam lobe.  This puts the chain 28 links back from the exhaust mark and right on the intake cam mark.  Sometimes I miss by a link or two so it needs to be adjusted in that case.

That's it!  The overriding objective is to not allow any slack to accumulate below the cams.

I always torque the cams and the center tower down and then install the tensioner.  Only then will I rotate the crank to see if it turns a full turn freely.  If the crank won't turn then I have to pull everything apart again.  Zed's method seems to be a quicker way if things need to be redone.  Next time I'm going to give it a try.

Thank you so much everyone! Took a breather on it the last couple days, and decided today was the day it either fell in place or... Well let's avoid or for now. 

I think what my issue ended up being ultimately was the tension being kept on the chain throughout the cam shafts installment process. I was overlooking how critical that was. It took me 3 or 4 tries this afternoon but I finally got it all together: caps, tower, tensioner and gave a little push on the kick lever by hand wich proved fruitless. I ended up putting a wrench on the crank and it turned with fairly minimal effort. There was a pop sound at first that I'm really hoping was one of the internal roller guide sprockets finding its place in the chain but now it rolls through with ease and everything seems fine. I'll definitely be posting more in the future as I'm doing a full ground up build from a few boxes of parts. Again, I really appreciate the support here and expert advice. 

Toot - out

Continue to rotate the engine clockwise using a 17mm spanner on the crank end, just to ensure that the tdc on the crank and the marks on the cams all align nicely after a few rotations. It's easy to be a tooth out on either cam.
DO NOT use the starter or kicker until you are 100% confident everything is as it should be.