TOPIC:

This is more a question about riding style, but seems more of a technical question than random chat. There's no "General" forum, so since it's related to handling I figured "Chassis" made some sense.

A few days ago while taking a curve a little faster than usual, I scraped the bottom of the center stand on the road. Since then, I've found myself leaning more into curves atop the bike. I've seen guys in 'busa videos cornering like that, but always figured it didn't make sense on a stock 27-year-old machine like mine.

Obviously while counterweighting you want to keep your body vertical while leaning the bike, but what about aggressive cornering? Does leaning your body beyond the bike's lean actually make you turn harder, or is it really just for show?

GargantuChet wrote:

This is more a question about riding style, but seems more of a technical question than random chat. There's no "General" forum, so since it's related to handling I figured "Chassis" made some sense.

A few days ago while taking a curve a little faster than usual, I scraped the bottom of the center stand on the road. Since then, I've found myself leaning more into curves atop the bike. I've seen guys in 'busa videos cornering like that, but always figured it didn't make sense on a stock 27-year-old machine like mine.

Obviously while counterweighting you want to keep your body vertical while leaning the bike, but what about aggressive cornering? Does leaning your body beyond the bike's lean actually make you turn harder, or is it really just for show?

I won't delve into the physics of it, but yes, leaning past centerline of an object while cornering will decrease your turn radius more/faster.

The same goes for lowering or raising your CoG in a turn. A great example of this is a merrygo round at a playground. If everyone is standing up the merry go round will go a certain speed. If everyone leans down off the go round, the speed will increase. If everyone then pulls themselves in closer to the point of rotation, the merry go round accelerates even more.

Much like on a bike. If you ar centerlined with the bike you will find that it's easier to initiate a turn and decrease turn radius the more you lower yourself down to the bike (not because of resistance either... this is assuming that you have a windshield for example.)

Post edited by: twowheeledterror, at: 2005/11/01 16:46

Hanging off the bike on the inside makes a huge difference in both the way the bike handles and the the ground clearance. So go and hang yourself:P

Get set up for the turn by shifting your rear over to the inside, put your weight mostly on the inside peg (I've seen others on this forum say they put weight on the outside peg), as you go into the turn - drop your inside shoulder and elbow and keep your head looking through the turn... Start gradually and get more radical, putting more weight on the inside peg, moving totally off the seat, etc as you gain experience. Bikes are individuals, so you'll also have to try to figure out what works best on the bike you are riding. You should experience previously exciting turns as boring and utterly predictable.

I would chose one turn that you know well and do some practice runs. Interstate on and off ramps (clovers) are good testing grounds. BUT, even thought the speed limit is high and you know the road, you'll still be on a public road, so try to ride within your new and improved limits in such a way that you are not, according to the law, being a danger to yourself and other motorists. To measure progress: compare how the turn "feels" at the same speed as you used to take it without shifting your weight to the inside, then increase your speed until the turn becomes exciting again - improvements on interstate clovers should easily be more than 10 mph. Make sure your tyres are warm. Maybe take it to the track?

Great advice. Another thing I would recommend is electrical tape. lol Put it over the speedo. Seriously, you will be suprised how much psychological effect looking at a speedo and seeing that you are initiating a lean at a faster rate than normal will cause you to second guess. You gotta learn to ride based on the feel of whats safely within your skill limit and whats not. :thumbup:

I recommend David Hough's More Proficient Motorcycling, which I got from my local library.
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1...nce&s=books&n=507846
You will learn more about that in there. I don't feel proficient enough to really give you advice, but the book is a worthwhile read on a wide variety of topics.

Personally haven't used the pegs that much, but I slide me *ss off to the inside as much as I "feel" I have to, look THRU the corner, try keep my inside shoulder down, maintain speed, roll on throttle as I come out, standing it back up as i go. Easier said than done at slightly higher than "legal" speed.....
I agree with the tape over speedo idea. i got over looing at the speedo long ago. Guess it's all about feel. Your bike and you is a personal thing....you'll know if you ask it to "go to far".....

What you've probably seen is "Pushing on the outside peg" (I wrote that, and it's effective), which obviously will shift your body mass to the inside of the turn, just like picking up one foot will cause you to lean toward that foot if you don't do anything else. Standing on the outside peg would be a different matter, as your body weight would be on the wrong side. Pushing on the outside peg doesn't take your body weight off the seat or the inside peg if you just push slightly to shift yourself over. Check it out in your chair...push hard with your right foot, straight down and see where your body goes.

When you lean toward the inside, you need less lean angle on the bike because the center of gravity is contributing more to the turn through your body mass being offset from the contact patch. That's why guys who lean off in normal highway turns look silly...the bike doesn't have to lean much at all...and their chicken strips will be wider to boot. On our rural highways, I can easily double the speed limits on the sign-posted curves, without leaning. Leaning adds 7-10 more mph. On a normal road, you can see the potential for legal trouble if you get carried away.

Still, the push on the handlebar is what initiates the real turning forces...leaning just makes it more effortless, and allows greater speed on a given turn raius before you exceed the maximum lean angle of your tires/equipment. Lean first if you're going to do it. Shifting your cg around in mid turn can be a little unsettling to the suspension, and will also require additional handlebar input, so your smoothness will be affected. Also, on public roads, the suitability of the surface has to be considered, because higher speeds still require traction, regardless of how you arrive at your lean angle. Sand, gravel, and oil help you slide off the road even if you're not leaning much at all.



Post edited by: ronboskz650sr, at: 2005/11/01 18:29

Be careful exploring the limits of your bike's cornering ability. A couple years after I bought my bike (late 1970's) I noticed a minor wobble while going through a particular 25 MPH ramp entering Route 95. Having about 16k miles on the bike at the time, I replaced the stock shocks with S&W's and put on a fresh set of Michelin A48 / M48 tires with the PZ2 racing compound (boy, did they stick to the road!!). Back to the ramp, I drove through at my "normal" 45 MPH. No wobble. I worked my way around to the next exit and 5 minutes later came through the ramp again - this time at 60 MPH. No wobble. Feeling my oats, I went up the road and worked my way around a third time. 5 minutes later, I was blasting through the 25 MPH ramp as fast as I dared. I quickly glanced at the speedometer and it showed around 75 MPH. No wobble. This was so cool until I saw the State Trooper sitting on Rout 95 not 100 yards past the ramp. Quote: "Are you in a hurry son?" He clocked me at 78 MPH on the 25 MPH ramp, but when I explained that I was doing scientific research he cut me some slack and ticketed me for exceeding 75 MPH on Route 95 (a 55 MPH limit) instead of the ramp. Be careful, crashing is not the only hazard. Ed

Here's some advice on leaning: www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=63 and curves: www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=214
What if you drag a peg? www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=208
Standing on your pegs raises your Center of Gravity: www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=98
Dragging pegs: www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=73
Accelerating in a curve: www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=868

Many more Motorcycle Tips & Tech. Articles: www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/default.asp?CAT_ID=4

Great links, Rob! Thanks.

Thanks for all of the replies and insights!

I do think I've been overdoing the leaning, since I didn't want to damage anything that should have a nice shiny surface. I feel much better after looking and making sure that it was actually the center stand being scraped (cosmetically, it's much less important than the exhaust!).

In general, I'm trying to be gentle, as I don't trust my tires or suspension. The tires are old, and the front forks... well, let's just say I should get around to searching the archives and figuring out what'll fit on my bike. I don't think I'm going faster around corners, just rounding them off less than I normally would (so I can still negotiate the turn in case something comes up).

I'll have to check out the local libraries to see if I can find a copy of "More Proficient Motorcycling". Based on your recommendation (and the high Amazon ratings), I might just buy it if I can't find a local copy.

And I agree with the idea of finding a track for practice... With more experience, more confidence in the equipment, and a closed course, I'd be happy to experiment with leaning vs. not leaning. When it's my safety and that of others, I figured asking more experienced riders was less likely to result in injury and embarassment.

Slightly relevant sidenote: I just turned 1000 (miles of riding experience) a week and a half ago. I definitely have no false ideas about my own experience and ability. Give me another couple of thousand, and I might consider the electrical tape. As it is, my speedo reads high (says 70 mph at 60 mph...), and I think for the moment that's fine. I'd like to hold to that paranoia a bit longer!

Besides, if you go too fast on the KZ, you get where you're going and have to get off of the bike sooner. Where's the fun in that?

GargantuChet wrote:

...
Besides, if you go too fast on the KZ, you get where you're going and have to get off of the bike sooner. Where's the fun in that?

Now that's a catch 22!