Paint protection?

ltdrider wrote:

I had mine repainted with acrylic urethane. The painter said he would void the warranty if I used anything other than 3M Imperial Hand Glaze. He gave me a bottle, and I've used it religiously.
Mine is in a plastic quart bottle. Apply it with a lint-free cloth. A little goes a long way. Then just buff it off with a clean cloth.
Mmmmmm.... SHINY!

Glaze is a polish; I think you can/should still put wax over it.
Did you get a urethane clear? You ever have problems with the gasoline? Urethane's supposed to be the gasproof paint, right?

edit:

that might have sounded too inflammatory to some, so I deleted it. If you were offended by it, I apologize.

It wasn't meant to be rude. I just get wound up over paint. I spent the majority of my adult life researching it, rather than just learning how to do it.

Post edited by: john68, at: 2005/11/22 19:21

I have one bike with original paint (black with gold pinstripes), and a second bike that is a pretty good duplicolor rattlecan repaint (bright silver with black pinstripes). There is no doubt that the original paint is far more durable, and seems to have held much of the original shine with only minimal fade after 25 years.

The duplicolor one looks good now, but I do need to be very careful with it -- after only about 5 months there are already some small chips and gas drip blemishes. I don't mind, since I only did the bondo + repaint on a badly damaged tank to see if I could, and to enable me to ride the bike without it looking like it fell over, and sat outside behind a local frat house for years (it did) -- I am still looking for a better original tank.

Here's what I think are issues we are all trying to work out with this "repaint" thing: When our Kawasaki tanks were born, they were born naked (no paint). Somebody, or some robotic machine, painted them, using a process and paints that must still be available (although maybe the EPA has stopped the use of the old style paint -- anybody know about that?). So, if the old paint, or an equal quality new paint, is available, then why can't we find someone who can strip our tanks down to bare metal, paint it, and bake it, resulting in a finish of quality equal to the original? I guess I don't understand why not.

Just my opinion from personal experience. I've seen factory paint jobs that looked awesome and lasted for years. I've seen factory paint jobs that looked like crap on the showroom floor and were peeling and fading within a few years. Obviously I've seen repaints that were crappy and didn't last at all. But I've got a 1970 chevelle that had a vinyl roof when I bought it in 1983. In 1984 I removed the vinyl and had the roof painted the same color as the rest of the car (red) which was still the original paint from 1970. When it was done you couldn't tell the roof was a repaint except it was to perfect compared to the rest of the car. Now 22 years later you really can't tell the roof is a repaint. The car has been kept clean and hand waxed on regular basis. Believe me I know this is the exception to the rule. Basically I believe the bottom line is choosing the correct materials, using the correct methods to prep and paint, and finally taking care of the finished product. Like my uncle likes to say "Do it once. Do it right. Never come back to it."

Bud,
exactly... materials and workmanship.
You also have to remember that how a car gets used (or abused) will have an effect on how well the paint holds up. Classic cars, show cars, infrequently driven cars will all be better off.

Apeman,

I can't disagree there. Duplicolor, and other spray can paints are not gonna hold up. To me, that wasn't the issue here. The issue was, whether a professional repaint is more durable than a factory finish.



To all,
As far as recreating factory paint process, it can be done, is being done, and still isn't the right way.

I'll break this all down here...

First let's examine the key elements of durability I meantion in a previous post.

UV Protection-

The ability of a paint to resist the effects of sun damage are of utmost importance, as most vehicles are exposed to direct sunlight most of the day. For a paint to be durable, it has to withstand this bombardment of UV light without cracking, peeling, discoloration, fading etc... Among the best paints for this are Urethane based paints. The worst... acrylic laquer.


Porousness-

Steel and aluminum are susceptable to corrosion, and keeping oxygen away from the metal is also a key factor in whether or not a paint will perform well. Most paints, especially enamel based paints are very porous and allow water and oxygen to reach the metal underneath. This creates oxidation of the surface, and that leads to staining, bubbling, adhesion problems, and paint surface oxidation. Look at a mid 80's Chevy blazer with original single stage paint. The paint gets a haze to it that must be cut and buffed off to regain the luster of the paint. This type of oxidation is often confused for a heavily scratched or mistreated clearcoat on newer vehicles. Automatic brush carwashes, drying the surface with papertowels, using snow brooms can all lead to the same look of "dull."

Anti-Corrosive Capabilities-

A lot of old repair work on cars only used a single build type primer to level the final surface prior to painting. This primer/surfacer was prone to absorbing water, as are some polyester bodyfillers. In order to repair something correctly with long lasting results, the technician would have to apply 2 types of primers to the surface. One for sealing the metal, and one with high-film-build characteristics to be used for leveling the surface. Recently, a new group of DTM primers have been able to combine the 2 separate priming operations into 1 step, by use of a anti-corrosive additive, and waterproof characteristics. These DTM or "Direct-To-Metal" primers are key to keeping the paint from oxidizing, rust staining, bubbling, or from having adhesion problems.


Self-Etching DTM Capabilities-

The term gets thrown around quite loosely, but I'll give a brief description of what self etchign actually means.
In order to have good adhesion to metal, the surface must no be shiney, or smooth, but rather, needs to be sanded or scuffed up until it's completely dull or void of reflection. As all new cars are not first sanded prior to applying any paint, they needed an additive to the primer that would etch the metal for better adhesion. hence the term, "self-etching" primer. In order to have proper adhesion, the "self-etching" primer must contain LEAD or a similiar etching additive. now that lead is out of all paint, their "Self-etching" qualities have gone downhill. Another main concern with a primer is whether or not it will adhere to the final paint well. EX. look at any 1987-1993 GM Grand Am - Cavalier - Chrysler minivan. Notice paint coming loose from the hood and roof panels? notice that the gray primer is still intact underneath the flaking paint? Just by looking at any of these vehicles, you can tell that adhesion to the paint is as important as adhesion to the substrate.



Catylization-

Among the best blunders of older paint systems is the lack of any type of catylization. Catylized paint is a 2 part mixture. The extra additive(or catylist) reacts with the paint so that when the chemical reaction is complete, it changes the make-up and with paint, does so to give it extra strength, and quicker drying times. without a catylist, paint that is dry is just as it was when it was liquid in the can. It can easily be stained by gasoline and other chemicals, and provides less UV protection. A key factor to whether or not the factory paint on your vehicle is of any quality is catylization of the paint.



finally...

SURFACE PREPARATION-

I saved this one for last because it trumps most of the others. Without proper surface preparation, even the best of paintjobs can be short lived. Whether or not the metal was properly cleaned (example 1981-1987 Ford E,F series all have big rust scabs along the sides of the body, because the metal was rusting before it was painted), whether or not the metal was scuffed, what type of self-etching primer was used, whether or not the primer was retouched after initial application, what type of sanding was done to the metal(wet or dry), whether the primer sanding dust properly removed, whether the climate was properly controlled, and whether or not the metal tempurature matched the air tempurature all effect the final finish and durability of the paint.


Now that you know what makes or breaks a paint job, let me explain fully why factory paint is inferior to a QUALITY repaint.

here's how the factory paints a gas tank.

bare metal is dipped to remove any surface contamination, and oxidation, then, the tank is hung up, and sprayed with a base coat of either gray, or gray metallic. then, the tank continues down the line, air and heat light drying, until it reaches the second stage where it is painted with a tinted clearcoat. Then it air dries and heat lamp dries more, and is painted with clearcoat, then heat and air...

That's it.

no sealers, primers, sanding, scuffing nothing.

The paint is not even catylized.


now, how I paint a gas tank.


depending on condition, I may use a couple different techniques but all will give the same result... Bare steel that is scuffed up and degreased to recieve anti-corrosive DTM Catylized primer. Once the tank is in primer, I will sand it out to shape it and scuff the primer to receive the final paint. Then the tank is thoroughly dried, masked off if nessesary, and sprayed with the various coats. All coats are sprayed on with catylized urethane basecoat, and urethane or polyurethane clearcoats.
The differences are important to the final product.

differences:

factory- no sealers or anti-corrosive primers
repaint- epoxy primer(lead based is still available through Matrix) or DTM anti-corrosive primer

factory- no scuffing of the bare steel
repaint- bare steel is properly sanded and scuffed for maximum adhesion

factory- paint is non-catylist enamel (pre 1986)
repaint- paint is catylized urethane or polyurethane

does this make sense?


The other thing that I must point out is.

repaints get a bad rap because of shoddy workmanship or poor quality materials.

someone said, "out of the millions of repaints I have seen, 99% are bad"

When in reality, the millions of repaints they have seen where obviously bad enough to know they were repaints. Out of the millions of cars they have seen, how many did have paint work done, but it went unnoticeable? How many cars have paint work done that is unnoticeable? I have even had customers argue with me about their vehicles, insisting I never did any repair work to them, when in reality, I have, they just forgot about it, because it is not noticeable at any length. Cars are measured in millimeters now, paint is matched by VIN number as well as paint code, technology is far superior today than is was just 10 years ago. For anyone to argue that paint applied in 1978 is superior to paint designed in 2003 is not presenting a good arguement. Just saying that "because I have seen bad repaints, or had bad experiences" is not a valid argument for or against repainting. That would be like someone saying that life-flight helicopters are inferior to ambulances because they keep seeing them crashed on the news. How many life-flight rescues were performed without oru knowledge? 2 per week? 5 per week? 10 per week? How many times do we hear about a crash? 1 per year? The news doesn't report on all the successful flights, just the unsuccessful ones. To say that all life-flight helicopters are evil because a few pilots or weather conditions were bad is just not valid. The same goes for paint jobs. If a shop paints on 10 cars per week (about average) and only one has a noticeable flaw per month, that's 1 out of every 40. So, if you notice the flaw in the 1, but the other 39 go undetectable, then why now is it that all of the repaints are bad?

Rickman:
Yes, the paint has urethane clear on it. I'm not sure how many coats. I am VERY careful with gas. I use a paper towel, wrapped around the gas nozzle when I fill it, so I don't know how resistant it is.

I recently did a test with krylon rust tough enamel. I painted a piece of galvanized steel with no preparation and no primer. After a couple of days (48 hour cure time, supposedly), I poured gas on it and let it sit. A few minutes later, the center of the painted area was still okay, but the edges were wrinkling. When I rinsed it off, the film could be peeled off the part in one piece. This leads me to believe a properly sanded, primed tank would do well with this and a lttle caution in filling up at the station. The outer film didn't melt, but exposed edges allowed the gas to get under it and melt the lower layer, which (being enamel) really never gets super hard. It was just two days, and the can said 48 hours so i suspect a little more time would have made it even tougher. I really rushed it to get a worst case scenario, and I completely doused the part in gas.

My only problem with urethane is a personal health concern. I don't think I have the right safety equipment to keep from hurting myself with it. I have some in the three cans, and, frankly the back panel precautions scared me off from using it. John, could you give an expert run-down of what I really need to wear to safely spray this paint? I really want to redo my bike in the spring with it, but don't want catalyzed urethane in my lungs because I don't have a fresh air supply respirator (Is that the right term?)

If we are talking about the original paint job on Kawasaki's, let me say that the paint on my blue 1977 KZ650C1 has held up better than any paint job I've seen on anything. The paint has not faded - period. If you look where it's covered by the leading edge of the seat it is exactly the color of the rest of the tank, side covers, and tail piece. And even though I keep my bike covered when not in use, it has seen plenty of sun (over 43,000 miles worth). There is NO orange peel - period. Just glass smooth paint. I can't speak for other models, and maybe a bit more time was spent on the C1 as it was factory clear coated, but I just wish the paint on any of my cars, including my Allante that was built and painted by Pinninfarina in Italy, looked as good as the paint on my 29 year old Kawasaki. I'm sure that decent repaint can be done, and Itdrider's red tank looks great (though I doubt it will last 10 times as long as my bike's original paint - John, that would be more than 300 years) but please let's not knock the truly great original paint job that Kawasaki did on at least some of our bikes. Whew, I'm done. Ed

ronboskz650sr wrote:

My only problem with urethane is a personal health concern. I don't think I have the right safety equipment to keep from hurting myself with it. I have some in the three cans, and, frankly the back panel precautions scared me off from using it. John, could you give an expert run-down of what I really need to wear to safely spray this paint? I really want to redo my bike in the spring with it, but don't want catalyzed urethane in my lungs because I don't have a fresh air supply respirator (Is that the right term?)

December 3, 1984. Bhopal, India...

Union Carbide killed 15,000 people overnight in a methyl-isocyanate fog that came from a blown tank at the Dow Chemical Company owned plant.

most died instantly, while others took weeks or years of agonizing pain and nervous system damage to pass.



You Shouldn't feel safe shooting paint. You have the same chemical in the Urethane hardener as they did in India 21 years ago. I wouldn't sweat one paint job though. If you have an organic respirator, paint suit, rubber gloves, and a face debris hood, then you should be well covered from exposure. You can even get away with those 3M disposable respirators. They say not, but the key issue is positive pressure. Most respirators work by pulling air in as you breathe in, this creates (negative pressure)air leaks around the outside edge of the silicone rubber, against your face. If you keep a clean shaved face, and keep the mask snug, you'll be ok. to test negative pressure, put the respirator on (follow the directions that came with it. there is a right way and a wrong way) and hold your palms over the air intakes on the mask, and draw a deep breath. you shouldn't be able to force air to flow in around the outside of the mask. If you can, put some vasoline on the edge of it to seal it out better, or get a different sized respirator. They do come in a few different sizes.


For the most part, I wouldn't worry about the chance of becoming isocyanate sensitive from one paint job. there are warning signs to becoming sensitive.
symptoms usually go as follows. first is headaches while painting, then nausea, vomiting, and fainting. Once you go beyond fainting, it could be sudden severe nervous system shutdown causing death. I worry at great lengths about it, but at the same time, I have been painting full cars in unventilated spaces, and have had friends standing amongst the overspray, talking to me while I paint.

No one has dropped dead yet.









650ed,

If he takes care of the paint on that tank like you take care of your original paint, then yes, it will last 300 years(actually, if you want to be technical, it would only be 280 years)... Average life of a 1978 paint job was around 6 years before crazing/cracking/fading/rust etc. 60 years of the same treatment from a quality repaint is about fair. Why wouldn't it? King tut's tomb has original paint in it, isn't that thing 3000 years old???

I knock all old paint, so don't feel singled out. They are all bad. btw, most, if not all of kawasaki's paint on street cycles from 1971- was 3 stage clearcoated paint(uncatylized acrylic enamel), so your's is not special. I'm sure if you treated your cars the way you treat your motorcycle, you'd have paint last that long on them too. I can't speak for whatever type of Italian car you are talking about, I don't know anything about them, but I do know that 43,000 of good weather driving over 28 years is hardly considered using a car/bike daily. Did you see the Pope's powder blue 1979 Ford Escort? That paint was near perfect(except for dings and knicks,) and I'd say that is because it was only driven 60,000 miles, and then it was stored at the Vatican from 1978 until 1996 when the Pope auctioned it off. Fact is fact. Daily drive a car, or a bike for 6-10 years, leave it set outside 24-7, neglect it, and you will have paint issues. Take care of any paintjob, garage the vehicle, and drive it less than 5,000 miles per year, and yes, the paint will last. It's a novel concept called, "taking care of things."

I am not gonna sit here and argue this back and forth though. If no one wants to believe me that technology 20-30 years ago was inferior to modern technology, suit yourself.

You know, I thought the original paint on the KZs was lacquer. But John68 says it was acryllic enamel. According to Color-Rite, the original paint on the KZ900LTD was Luminous Classic Red lacquer...they still make it. It's a three step process. I was told that the acryllic urethan would be more durable than lacquer, especially for the gas tank, which will see some gasoline, no matter how careful I am.
And the other factor was that California has outlawed the use of lacquer paint by paint shops.

650ed wrote:

...the paint on my blue 1977 KZ650C1 has held up better than any paint job I've seen on anything. The paint has not faded - period. (...) And even though I keep my bike covered when not in use, it has seen plenty of sun (over 43,000 miles worth).

Let's try a little math though. A car that's not kept in a garage would have seen 28 years' worth of sunlight since 1977.

Let's assume that the average trip you took was a mere 10 miles (round trip). That's 4300 trips on the Kawasaki. Let's assume that you parked the bike outside 8 hours every time you took it out (say to work a shift, or something).

Okay, so 4300 trips, 8 hours per trip sitting outside. That's 34,400 hours.

Let's even add riding time -- maybe you were in traffic, average say 15 miles per hour across the bike's lifetime (yes, this is low, but it puts you outside on the bike for longer, so it's fair). So, 43,000 miles, at 15 miles per hour, 2866 hours riding.

That's 37,266 hours total the bike spend outside uncovered, assuming that you kept it covered when it was at home. Sounds like a lot, huh?

Well, 37,266 hours, with 24 hours in a day, is 1552 days uncovered in total. 1552 days at 365 days a year means that your bike has spent a lifetime total of 4.2 years outside in the sunlight.

So, while the car would have seen 28 years outside in the sunlight, your bike has seen far less than ten.

Is it any wonder the paint is in good shape? You took great care of it!

ltdrider wrote:

You know, I thought the original paint on the KZs was lacquer. But John68 says it was acryllic enamel. According to Color-Rite, the original paint on the KZ900LTD was Luminous Classic Red lacquer...they still make it. It's a three step process. I was told that the acryllic urethan would be more durable than lacquer, especially for the gas tank, which will see some gasoline, no matter how careful I am.
And the other factor was that California has outlawed the use of lacquer paint by paint shops.

It probably is acrylic laquer originally that was on your bike. I know the 3 big auto manufacturers quit using acrylic laquer completely by 1978(GM was the last), I have no idea exactly what the japanese used throughout the years. catylized acrylic enamel was on the 1987-up bikes that I worked on. the newer ones are colored plastic, and polyurethane. Whatever it is, it's not worth repainting with. If they had the products available today, back then, they would have used them.

Laquer paint systems are outlawed only because of the VOC weight rating. Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC's) are organic chemicals that have a high vapor pressure and easily form vapors at normal temperature and pressure. The thinner and paint decays and emits these compounds into the ozone. they are measured by the weight of the emissions and have to stay below 5.0 lb/gal(some specific products must stay within lower specs, like topcoats must stay below 3.5 I think). Anything above that is outlawed by the EPA. laquers are closer to 6.8 lb/gal. twice the legal limit, practically.

Happy Thanksgiving

Post edited by: john68, at: 2005/11/24 20:53