Huge points gap necessary for proper dwell angle

I had a habit of using points for a long time. I'd file them, not oil the felt follower, etc. It got to the point the only way to time them was to have the open at the F mark. I'd hit them with my timing light after setting them. The bike would run fine, I bought a new setup and ran it for a while because I burned up my first Dyna set. (bad battery connection) I ran the points in 13 for a couple months until I got a new Dyna set. I carrry my points set and cam with me just in case.
Steve

aenikolopov wrote:
1) I ended up with a huge points gap when adjusting to 180-185deg dwell angle on both sets of points. The resultant gaps were about 0.55mm, far outside spec (0.30-0.40mm).
2) I wasn't able to get the static timing right. With the points plate turned as clockwise as possible, the points still opened before before the F mark.

That can indicate a problem with the mechanical advancer. As they wear, they allow the advance to kick in too early which throws the timing off.

swest wrote: . It got to the point the only way to time them was to have the open at the F mark. I'd hit them with my timing light after setting them.

That's all heartening to hear. What do you mean by the quoted sentence though? How else would you time them?

bountyhunter wrote: That can indicate a problem with the mechanical advancer. As they wear, they allow the advance to kick in too early which throws the timing off.

You know, that's very interesting to hear. For my last set of points, I also had to have the points plate turned all the way, but I didn't think anything of it because I hadn't installed the points and didn't know how old they were (also, it was my first time dealing w/ points, or a motorcycle altogether).
How can I go about figuring out whether this is the problem? I guess if I get a fresh set of points and this is the case, then it must necessarily be the advancer? I'm trying to figure out what the problem what the advancer could be - is it wear of the metal on the advancer cam, the one that pushes the points open? Would it be some loosening of how the cam connects to the advancer body/crankshaft?

Usually the plastic of the point's contact block is what wears down.

SET THE GAP CORRECTLY FIRST! You stated your gap is set far wider than the specified gap. That being the case, you cannot expect to be able to properly set the timing. I would urge you to set the gap CORRECTLY (NOT WIDER THAN THE SPEC) and then set the timing. Anything else you do before setting the gap correctly is just going to make you run around in circles chasing your tail. You seem to be trying to do everything (such as bending the points, fiddling with the advancer, etc.) you can think of to try to avoid setting the points correctly. Clearly, I don't understand why you are making this task difficult when installing and adjusting points is such a very simple task. Ed

650ed wrote: SET THE GAP CORRECTLY FIRST! You stated your gap is set far wider than the specified gap. That being the case, you cannot expect to be able to properly set the timing. I would urge you to set the gap CORRECTLY (NOT WIDER THAN THE SPEC) and then set the timing. Anything else you do before setting the gap correctly is just going to make you run around in circles chasing your tail. You seem to be trying to do everything (such as bending the points, fiddling with the advancer, etc.) you can think of to try to avoid setting the points correctly. Clearly, I don't understand why you are making this task difficult when installing and adjusting points is such a very simple task. Ed

Ed,
2 things - one, I haven't yet gone through your detailed instruction set from above. two, with regards to the gap - i can, and have previously, set the gap correctly. When I do (that is, after I do), I can set the timing correctly, though I do have to have the points plate turned all the way out to do so. This whole thread started with my questioning how accurately I was setting the gap. That is, how closely I was getting to the recommended dwell, which the gap serves as a proxy for - when everything is well and good, the spec gap (0.3-0.4mm) gives you the proper 185-195degree dwell, but it's the dwell that's important, not the actual gap. I think we agree on that. My points all start with the assumption that I have properly set the dwell angle/time, which is the important bit, even though it leaves the gap out of spec.

so a new set of points.

I understand you are trying to get the dwell correct, but if you are using a dwell meter and not reading it on the correct scale or not applying the factor of "2" to the reading as needed all bets are off. This is why I recommended setting the points using the static method before checking with the dwell meter.

I suspect we agree that the whole idea of setting the points correctly is to make the motorcycle engine run properly. Given that as the primary goal, it would be best to set the points with the correct gap as specified in the manual and adjust the timing using the static method and leaving the dwell meter sit for a bit. Doing this carefully should put the ignition timing about 99.9% on target.

IF after setting the points using the static method the bike runs great, and if you then check the dwell using the dwell meter and find the dwell appears to be way off, then it is clear that there is a problem with the dwell meter or the way it is being used. This is true because if the dwell is way off the bike will not run great.

If, on the other hand, the bike runs like crap or doesn't run at all after carefully setting the the points using the static method, there actually is some other problem that must be isolated and corrected. Ed

Ed,
I'll write once I run though adjusting the timing by setting the gap. I'm interested in the results, and I shouldn't be here arguing without having done it (or rather, done it recently).
Armen

I think that will at least give a good starting point from which to troubleshoot if there are still issues. Let us know the results. Ed

Why are so many people having problems setting the points and the timing on these? It's so stupid simple on mine....each set of points has an individual mounting to set gap and they can individually be retarded or advanced for "timing" after the gap is set.
From that point, the entire backng plate can be moved to advance or retard the two sets of points as a pair.
And when done correctly, the mounting screws and their respective slots are no where near the ends of their travel.
??? Am I missing something?
It's clear in the FSM.