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TOPIC: '78 KZ650 strange wiring problem?

'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 00:32 #535985

  • 74ullc
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Buddy of mine has a 1978 KZ650 with some strange electrical issues. The starter is always hot even with ignition and kill switch off. But even though the starter will engage at anytime it wont start unless you....

Hit starter button and then while cranking turn the key on! If you turn the key on and then hit the starter button it will crank but never fire. (clutch switch is bypassed)

Today we set out to figure why the starter button is always hot and found some wiring is wrong by the schematic we have.

The red/yellow wire off the starter relay was tied to a hot wire straight off the battery and then tied into the red/white wire that runs from the rectifier to the 20A fuse.

The schematic we have shows that the red/yellow wire from the starter relay goes to the black/yellow wire. The black/yellow wire is the main ground for everything correct?

So we went about changing these wires to be how the schematic shows. Then the starter, kill switch and ignition switch all worked like normal. Problem solved we figured. Well, after a few mile test ride the bike died, completely dead battery. After jumping the bike we checked and have no charging at the battery. We put the wiring back how it was and now its charging. ???? I'm kinda stumped here, anyone have any idea what could be going on?

It looks to me like the red/yellow wire off the starter relay should go to ground thru the yellow/black wire. But if I do that then I get zero charging with the bike running even though then the ignition switch works like it should. :ohmy:

Any ideas on what to check next?
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 01:35 #535997

  • gd4now
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It sounds like someone in the past did some - lets call it - creative wiring. The 78 650's came stock with a single phase permanent magnet charging system that had a combo regulator/rectifier unit.

There should be 2 yellow wires coming from the alternator to the combo unit and a black/yellow ground from the combo and a red/white which feeds the battery.

When you hook the red/white from the starter relay to the black/yellow ground, what are you doing with the red/white that it use to connect to? You many need to plug it into the red/white from the combo unit as it needs to feed the + post on the battery.
1977 KZ650 B1
Pods and Denco header


This is my Z

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 01:42 #535998

  • rstnick
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The red/yellow off the starter relay does connect to the black/yellow wire grounding circuit.
Being red/yellow, I would have thought it would be a positive 12 volt power supply, like all other red/yellow wires (well most it seems).
Someone else mentioned just the other day that this red/yellow wire off the starter relay hooked up to ground.
I looked in a manual and it comfirms this.
There is a red wire attached to the starter solenoid, to one of the large connections, that is a power feed (12 volts) and in circuit with the red/white that comes off the voltage regulator.

Check that the voltage regulator is working properly, and wired correctly, as per the manual.
Rob.
CANADA
http://www.kz650.info/

'78 KZ650 C2, 125K kms, Rickman fairing, Delkevic ex, EI, K&N, ATK fork brace, steering damper, braced swingarm, Progessive & Koni, 18" Z1R front wheel.

'00 ZRX1100, Ohlin's shocks, fork brace, steering damper, ELS +4, Corbin seat, Gimbel bugspoiler.

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Last edit: by rstnick.

'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 10:12 #536039

  • 650ed
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First - Just in case....make sure the engine is truly a 1978 model. There were several different charging systems on KZ650s depending on the year. Here's where you can check the engine serial # against the model years:
models.kz650.info/index.htm

Once you are positive about the model year of the engine; here are wiring schematics that may help:
diagrams.kz650.info/wiring/WiringDiagrams.htm
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 11:17 #536049

  • Old Man Rock
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The wiring you changed to would be correct for not sure with present how this would work the way they had it.... 12Vdc on both ends of control coil. May explain why hot all the time though... :whistle:

Here's the skinny....

As can be easily reviewed in this KZ650 3 phase dynamo image. (yours may be 2 phase) but truly doesn't matter for what you're T-shooting for.

Starter Control relay:
* Starter button passes battery Vdc (+12Vdc) to starter relay.
* Starter relay coil other side is grounded.
* Through starter button press, coil plunger is energized and pulls down to pass 12Vdc from battery to starter motor.

Pretty simple when you think about it...

Easy test, wire as bellow should work fine.
NOTE: Insure your engine/frame is ideally grounded (no rust/oxidation/paint etc... on terminal connection)

NOTE 2: Insure Black/yellow conductor from your regulator is at battery ground potential! ;)

1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az
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Last edit: by Old Man Rock.

'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 14:14 #536087

  • 74ullc
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Here is a photo to show what we are working with. This is after we undid everything and put new connectors on. When we undid everything stuff was just twisted together and taped. :(

From the top down in the photo....

red/white wire off the relay is tied in with the positive straight off the battery

red/yellow off relay

red wire with blue female bullet connector (just to the left of red/yellow wire) ties into the red/white wire which you also can see at the bottom of the photo attached to the red wire from the rectifier

black wire with blue female bullet connector (lower left in photo) ties into the black/yellow wire which can also be seen coming out of the plastic connector from the rectifier. We had to add this wire. If wiring had been original I would have questioned why we had to add a wire, but since all this was such a mess it didnt surprise me that we had to add a wire. We added this wire to tie into the red/yellow wire off the relay.

Attachment 100_93531031x1280.jpg not found

Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 14:28 #536091

  • 74ullc
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Could there be something wrong with the starter relay causing it to feed voltage to ground thru the red/yellow wire? Because when I connect the red/yellow wire off the relay to ground thru the black/yellow wire it does not charge while running.

Maybe this is why someone tied the red/yellow in with the hot wires? But then making the red/yellow wire hot on the starter relay causes the starter to be hot always?

How can I check the starter relay?
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 15:49 #536105

  • OnkelB
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One thing that confuses me a bit is that you have a green wire coming off your regctifier/regulator - that would suggest either an aftermarket item or a Honda unit.

The stock 650 1-phase rec/reg should have 5 wires: two yellow (stator), red or red/white (output to battery +),
black (ground/frame) and brown (voltage sense wire that should connect to a switched 12V source to sense
system voltage).

Some rec/regs haven't got the sense wire and sense system voltage internally in which case there's no brown wire.

It's a bit hard to tell from your pic if your rec/reg has 4 or 5 wires (looks like 4?), but if you have an aftermarket unit and the yellows, red and black are there, it would seem likely that the green wire is the sense wire.

However, if it's a Honda unit be aware that Honda uses green for ground - from your pic it seems that the green wire connects to a black/yellow (ground) which would be correct for a Honda unit.

Does your rec/reg have any markings/numbers that could help identify it?
77 KZ 650 B1, 82 GPz 1100 B2.

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Last edit: by OnkelB.

'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 16:01 #536107

  • faffi
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I have a B2 that, according to the frame number, is made mid-run of the B2 series. It still have the old 3-phase charging system and wiring harness. Well, had until I transferred it to my B1 that, to make things confusing, run a F1 engine.
1977 KZ650B1
1980 F1 engine
B1 3-phase alternator
B1 Points ignition

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 18:28 #536143

  • gd4now
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Not to start an argument here but the 78 models with the single phase systems came stock with a 4 wire reg/rect combo unit. (2 yellow, one red/white and one black/yellow) So I agree from the pic posted it is not one of the stock units on the bike.

I would be making sure the red lead from from combo unit connects to the battery. Trace the red/white lead you have plugged the red lead into and have indicated leads to the fuse as it should also connect to the battery + side. If it does not then you need to make it do so.
1977 KZ650 B1
Pods and Denco header


This is my Z

OLD KAW OWNERS SMILE ALOT

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 15 Jul 2012 19:42 #536161

  • OnkelB
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I stand corrected, Bruce. The 78 models (B2, C2 and D1) do indeed have a 4 wire rec/reg, the rest of the single phase systems (from the 79 models up to they switch to 3 phase) have a 5 wire.
77 KZ 650 B1, 82 GPz 1100 B2.

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 16 Jul 2012 00:26 #536246

  • 74ullc
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The rectifier is a new unit from Z1E, box said Ricky Motorsports on it. It has 4 wires, 2 yellow (stator), green (ground), red (power). The red wire does for sure go back to the battery thru the red/white wire.

We messed with it again today after charging the battery overnight on 2 amps. I borrowed a good digital multimeter from a neighbor today to recheck everything.

It is infact charging with everything hooked up correctly. (red/yellow starter relay wire to black/yellow ground wire instead of red/yellow relay to the hot red wire) But the charge voltage is WAY too low.

We are getting 12.02 at battery with engine off, 11.45 at idle and 12.04 at 2500rpm. He reved it up all the way to 5000 and still showed only 12.80

We checked the two yellow wires off the stator and are getting 70 volts AC @ 5000rpm on each wire.

Is there an easy way to check the rectifier? We went thru the Fault Finding Guide on Electrosport found here...

www.electrosport.com/technical-resources.../fault-finding-guide

...and made it thru sections A and B and got to section C where the DIODE-TEST stuff starts. I had no idea how to set the meter for DIODE-TEST, but everything up to that point passed the test.

I'm kinda thinking its the rectifier, just because its new doesnt mean its good. I'm also a little suspicious of the battery, shouldnt it be showing more like 12.75 volts after charging all night? It was showing 12.02 volts.
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F

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Last edit: by 74ullc.

'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 16 Jul 2012 03:58 #536265

  • gd4now
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I think I have posted this table before but do not remember the post to link to so here it is again. The different systems used on the (k)z650 and the part#s for the items used in the systems.

1977 KZ650 B1
Pods and Denco header


This is my Z

OLD KAW OWNERS SMILE ALOT

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 16 Jul 2012 09:59 #536276

  • OnkelB
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74ullc wrote:
I'm also a little suspicious of the battery, shouldnt it be showing more like 12.75 volts after charging all night? It was showing 12.02 volts.


12.02 volts does seem a bit low. However, just measuring the voltage will tell you little about the actual condition of the battery. I recently replaced the battery in my 1100 - after charging overnight it showed 12.2V alright, but the battery tester I have access to at work showed it only held 4.5Ah where it was supposed to hold 19Ah.

If you don't have a tester, best way is to use a hydrometer to test the specific gravity of the acid, this will tell you right away if the battery is good or not.

Hydrometers can be found cheap at most auto stores or hardware shops, just make sure you get one with a nozzle small enough to fit in a motorcycle battery.
77 KZ 650 B1, 82 GPz 1100 B2.

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 16 Jul 2012 10:08 #536277

  • faffi
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Actually, the B1 have 4 wires coming from the alternator; 3 yellow to the rectifier and one green going to the voltage regulator.

You need at least 13.4V to keep the battery reasonably charged, preferably 14V.
1977 KZ650B1
1980 F1 engine
B1 3-phase alternator
B1 Points ignition

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Last edit: by faffi.

'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 16 Jul 2012 10:24 #536279

  • Motor Head
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Here is my .02, I think your problem is the wrong regulator/ rectifier assy. The clue is the green wire. I believe that unit is for a excited field alternator, not the permanent magnet type. Of course I can't be 100% sure which you have, as parts can be changed on an old bike. Look at your harness that comes from the Stator area, and see what colors are there, pull the sprocket cover and see which is the nuetral switch. Report which wires are from the Stator.
Look at your R/R and see the Part # on it, I bet it will show its for an Excited field set up. You need this one if you have the permanent magnet system, 208.75.64.170/ItemDetails.aspx?item=RI10-304
See how it has a Black and not a green wire at the R/R 4 way plug.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 16 Jul 2012 15:18 #536352

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I'll have to see if he still has the box the RR came in, I bet he does. He could have ordered the wrong one, or Z1E could have sent the wrong one, it happens.

I will report back on the RR P/N later today. Then from there we can take a look under the sprocket cover. The green wire didnt really seem all that strange considering its an aftermarket unit, but now that I see the pic of the different one on Z1E it has me wondering.

If the RR is the wrong one, do you think we messed it up by running it on his bike? I dont know if Z1E will exchange it but its worth a shot if it's still functional.
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 16 Jul 2012 19:37 #536398

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Its looking like you guys were right and we have the wrong RR. The box is correct (10-304) but it looks like the wrong RR was in the right box.

He got it from bikebandit, but it came in a Ricks Motorsports box. Checking the Ricks Motorsports shows this...

www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/proddet...pmc=NzhLYXdLWjY1MEI=

...in the pic the RR has two yellow, one red/white and one black. Those colors and combination match the original harness on the bike. He is going to give bikebandit a shout tomorrow and see what he can find out.

I'll update this thread when we know for sure. I appreciate the heads up on the possible wrong RR, great help!!!!
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 16 Jul 2012 21:22 #536425

  • Motor Head
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Hope it works out for you, then it charges correctly so you can get out and ride. B)
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

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'78 KZ650 strange wiring problem? 28 Jul 2012 13:07 #539223

  • 74ullc
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He ordered another RR from bikebandit. Got the same one with the black body, two yellow wires, a red and green. Same result.

12.50 volts bike off
11.50 at idle
12.50 at 2500 - 4000, peak we saw was about 12.80 when he reved it up higher.

We did notice that the original red/white wire female bullet connector (connector to the red RR wire) was getting really hot where the plastic/rubber tubing is melted on. Looks like the factory heated that part of the wire to melt on the plastic tubing? Maybe there are some broken wires strands in there causing high resistance in that area. He is going to cut off the original connector and put a new one on. We'll see if that helps.
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F

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