shorai lithium batteries

tachrev wrote:

bountyhunter wrote:

tachrev wrote: This is the same as the a123 cells you where asking about when you started this post. Look them up, they are 3.6v 2300mah LiFePO4 cells, not Li-Ion cells.

Apparently they do not have the same charging issues as Li-Ion and are very robust.

www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/lithium-a123.htm

Li-Iron are clearly more robust than Li-Ion. No question about that. As to whether Li-Iron are suitable for auto/MC applications.... time will tell.

My point is, before I drop down $200+ for a battery/tender, I am going to let somebody else buy the first ones with the bugs.

Good point. Someone obviously blew at least one up.

I have to wonder what is in the shorai battery , I read accounts of people trying to blow up a123 cells to see what they would do...there was no fire as a result.

Maybe just more cells letting go at once?

I am not an battery expert by any means.

this is why i started the thread. looking for a safe option other than "factory". glad im getting some advice from experienced guys that know about electrics.

Stu Pidasole wrote:

andy9802gt wrote:

Stu Pidasole wrote: would these work?....... scroll down to videos.

That sounds like an invitation to express an opinion. If your buddy riding a hardley with a motor that s&s doesn't make (the biggest that they make is 145c.i.) has such good luck with them buy it why bother asking anyone else if your friend is a card carrying member of the "happy customer club"? :blink: :whistle:

its a 124 punched out and stroked. 90 over, 4 7/16 stroke. as far as your "happy customer club" comment, opinions are like arse holes. thanks for yours.:pinch:

ya know everytime you start a post asking advice you always have to go out of your way to insult the very same people youre asking for advise!
seems to me that somebody half as smart as you seem to think you are wouldnt need to ask so many questions

For the record, I am cynical of Li batteries for a good reason: they like to find new and creative ways to burn up.

I worked to support Sony and Sanyo who marketed the first consumer Li batteries. The very first thing they had to do before they could sell them was have us develop ICs that were inside the battery pack to monitor temperature, current and take protective action. For years, every Sony battery pack had sophisticated (and expensive) circuitry which would open some power FETs and disconnect the batterries from the outside world if they sensed too much current or too high temps.

The Sony batteries were pretty good, but they found out that if they were discharged too far, the cells would develop internal shorts and cook themselves because the remaining energy was dissipated instantly. Sony reformulated their anodes so they were less prone to that.

You may recall some Apple laptop computers with Li packs were cooking the genitalia of their users when the Li packs burned up. I wasn't working with Apply by then so I don't know the details, but it sounds familiar.

In about '94 we worked with a new startup called Valence Technology who had developed a new battery tech called Lithium Polymer which was really slick because it could be formed into any physical shape. They filled a contract with the Army for batteries for their night vision goggles. Then they found out if the batteries were discharged too far they also cooked themselves (and the face of the poor soldier wearing the goggles). That problem proved to be unsolvable and the company basically died.

So, when it comes to Lithium rechargeables....... I am skeptical of locating a large one anywhere near my family jewels.:blink:

wireman wrote:

Stu Pidasole wrote:

andy9802gt wrote:

Stu Pidasole wrote: would these work?....... scroll down to videos.

That sounds like an invitation to express an opinion. If your buddy riding a hardley with a motor that s&s doesn't make (the biggest that they make is 145c.i.) has such good luck with them buy it why bother asking anyone else if your friend is a card carrying member of the "happy customer club"? :blink: :whistle:

its a 124 punched out and stroked. 90 over, 4 7/16 stroke. as far as your "happy customer club" comment, opinions are like arse holes. thanks for yours.:pinch:

ya know everytime you start a post asking advice you always have to go out of your way to insult the very same people youre asking for advise!
seems to me that somebody half as smart as you seem to think you are wouldnt need to ask so many questions

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thanks for your input on the subject.

The biggest reason I wonder how LI-Iron Phosphate batteries could be used in a car or MC is because of how tightly the final charge voltage for an Li cell must be controlled to charge it correctly. The charger on a bike holds the system at about 14V, +/- maybe 0.5V. (about a 4% typical tolerance). Many also have a negative tempco built in to track the well known temp characteristics of the lead acid cell.

If you drop in a four cell Li-Iron battery, how happy will it be with that voltage?

I found a data sheet for a controller IC designed specifically to charge a Li-Iron Phosphate cell. The IC designers get the electrical specs from the battery makers.

ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/22191a.pdf

The specified cell voltage is 3.6V, +/-0.5%. A four cell battery should be charged to 14.4V (+/-0.5%). That is quite a ways away from what the typical bike's system will give the battery.

Shorai sells a charger for their batteries that likely has the right stuff, but I don't see how the bike's electrical system can keep it charged to the correct voltage.

TeK9iNe wrote: The small lithium cells can start a bike, sure, but sucking that much amperage out of that tiny capacitance that quickly = dead/weak cells, VERY quickly. I used to run RC cars off those cell packs we built and they only lasted about 15 minutes.

If you like building and replacing battery packs frequently - go for it.

The reason that the batteries are large is not just for the amperage capacity, but also to act as a buffer/capacitor for the charging system, to help smooth out the power.

There is probly some fancy light/small race approved batteries I might use, but for a street bike...? I dont know.

Peace.

Love the avatar

A true representation of how I feel... :sick:

Good info Bounty!

Slightly off topic but related.
u can change the starter to provide faster cranking. i have a Honda cb750f starter in my kz1200.
It makes a noticable dif in cranking speed. it is close to plug .
i have also heard that the J starter is plug and play.
also as already mensioned, upgrade to heavier wire.
Hope this is useful.
M

This pic will give you an idea of the relative size of these batteries- 350 CCA with a rise to 480 CA after a couple of pulses. No charging system on my dragbike, supplier says any 2a/6a charger will work with the 10 AH battery.

bountyhunter wrote: The biggest reason I wonder how LI-Iron Phosphate batteries could be used in a car or MC is because of how tightly the final charge voltage for an Li cell must be controlled to charge it correctly. The charger on a bike holds the system at about 14V, +/- maybe 0.5V. (about a 4% typical tolerance). Many also have a negative tempco built in to track the well known temp characteristics of the lead acid cell.

If you drop in a four cell Li-Iron battery, how happy will it be with that voltage?

I found a data sheet for a controller IC designed specifically to charge a Li-Iron Phosphate cell. The IC designers get the electrical specs from the battery makers.

ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/22191a.pdf

The specified cell voltage is 3.6V, +/-0.5%. A four cell battery should be charged to 14.4V (+/-0.5%). That is quite a ways away from what the typical bike's system will give the battery.

Shorai sells a charger for their batteries that likely has the right stuff, but I don't see how the bike's electrical system can keep it charged to the correct voltage.

Interesting thread. I've gotten a Ballistic 8-cell battery in a trade and have not decided on installing it. There are - obviously - reservations. Ballistic makes a LiFePo (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery as well. Here is a link to an interesting comparison: www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-battery/...torcycle-battery.htm

Ballistic has the following info on their site:
Charging instructions: www.ballisticparts.com/tech/charging.html
Tech info: www.ballisticparts.com/tech/faq.html

My concern is, that even if these work well on modern bikes, I still don't know how that translates to my 37 year old bike and charging system (I do have a modern reg/rec installed)?