Kaw electronic ignition vs Dyna S

Does the rotor for the pickups look the same for both ignitions? If so, then I would say that both ignitions should really use the 2.2 ohm coils since the dwell will most likely be about the same. Using 3 ohm coils will have the same drawback as using 3 ohm coils on the later mechanical-advance, electronic ignitions (81 ish?).

Are the pickups the same? I don't think I've seen ones that didn't look the same on the 79 to 81 ignitions.

If the earliest igniter can't handle 2.2 ohm coils, then don't bother with it. Get a later igniter, or make the HEI one. Or just ride locally till it blows up.

otakar wrote:

OKAY

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We know that.

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Where did the 79 KZ1000A3 come from. I don't think that model ever came up??? We were talking about a "J" ignition 21119-1041 2.2 Ohm. The 21119-5001/5061/1004/1013/1028 are the 3 Ohm ignitions.

Where did the 79 KZ1000A3 come from. I don't think that model ever came up???

As mentioned in earlier posts ---

otakar wrote:

Word of warning!!!!!! Make sure that the ignition is from a "J" model bike and not a 79/80 MKII motor. They are different systems. The early MKII 79/80 is a 3 ohm system the 81 & on "J" series are the 2.2 Ohm systems.

otakar wrote:

"J" motor Gray coils
MKII Motor Green coils

Zthou1977 wrote:

Ouch...and I thought I had it all figured out...The igniter is the only part here that is susceptible to damage should I use the wrong coils, isn't it? Or am I not thinking this through right?

MKII is the A3.

FSM A3 info noted FWIW (i.e., For What It's Worth, or For Whoever Is Wondering).

Good Fortune!

At the beginning he just said that he had an ignition of of an early Kawasaki. He wasn't sure what it was from. It was bought on eBay. I just wanted to determine exactly what ignition he had, 79/80 3 Ohm, or 81-83 2.2 Ohm, Before he went out and bought his coils. He than mentioned he had the 1041 IC box, which is a 2.2 Ohm igniter. The two igniters looked completely different and had different substitution #s. The 79/80 used the 1.5 Ohm +/- coils with a 1.5 +/- ballast resistor. The 81-83 Ignition used 2.2Ohm +/- coils with NO resistor. The Pulsing coils were the same on both systems. Now this being said, may not mean that the 79/80 Igniter will not handle the 2.2 Ohm coils like the later system did. The reason I brought it up was because when i was looking for new coils for my 79 KZ1300 I ran into the Nology coils. There was a strong warning that they will work with ignitions up threw 1980 but not the J ignitions. I was than told by them that the Nology coils ARE in fact being used and ARE being recommended for the 3 Ohm KZ1300 ignitions. The 79-84 1300 has the exactly same stock coils and ballast resistor as the 79/80 KZ1000. The Nology coils are intended for 3 Ohm ignitions but measure out at 2.4 ohm. This is a direct statement from Nology. Available in 0.3 Ohm, 0.6 Ohm and 2.4 Ohm. (for certain 3 Ohm Systems)"
www.nology.com/profiremotor.html
It might be due to the dwell of the ignitions or I don't know. Maybe "Loudhvx" can shed some light on this. I just didn't want any risks to be taken if the risks were not necessary. I hope this clears up my my initial concern about which ignition box he had.

The only real concern, in my opinion is to get the right dwell TIME to the coils. This is the same as saying "get the right dwell ANGLE to the coils at any given RPM". Since the pickup and rotor are what determine the available dwell in the mech-advance Kaw ignitions, they basically determine what coils you should use. The available dwell at 10,000 RPM will be the minimum dwell the coil needs to produce reliable spark at WOT (maximum cylinder pressure). At idle, the dwell will be much much longer and the coil will just become a heat-dissipating resistor, but will have maximum energy stored. Hopefully the igniter can handle the current required by the selection of coil and hopefully the coil can handle the dwell the pickups and rotor will throw at it at idle.

So the tradeoffs are that we want a coil that will fully charge in the dwell time given at 10,000 RPM and still be workable at lower RPMs (won't burn up the igniter or coil). Luckily, the KZ ignition helps us a little because it reduces the dwell angle slightly at lower RPMs.

Coils take time to charge. Current saturation is when the current in the coil reaches it's maximum. That can be predicted by simple ohms law. The voltage on the coil divided by the primary resistance gives the saturation current. Magnetic saturation is when the core has so much magnetism in it already, that increasing the current will not store any more energy. I believe magnetic saturation begins to happen before current saturation. At least it appeared this way on my tests, which were somewhat crude. (I did a simple spark duration versus primary current comparison.)

To predict the appropriate dwell time or angle, one needs to know the DC resistance of the coil primary, and the inductance of the coil primary. With secondary side open and coils mounted. (Coils mounted because if the coil's core is bolted to a steel structure the inductance will go up, but maybe only slightly. This may also cause the onset of magnetic saturation to happen earlier, but only slightly. Bountyhunter, a few others, and myself were discussing this a while ago on another forum, but we never came to any numerical conclusion on how much affect this will have. It should be safe to ignore it for our purposes since in my testing it wasn't enough to catch my attention, even though it may be a measurable quantity. We are dealing with round numbers here.)

Most coil companies will specify the primary side inductance. In fact Dyna does. Their numbers are based on an industry-standardized rating method. That number doesn't necessarily agree with what an inductance meter might measure, and it will likely not agree with what a current-versus time graph will show to be the inductance. This is because the inductance changes as the instantaneous current in the coil changes. The more magnetic flux in the core will reduce the effective inductance of the coil as the core approaches magnetic saturation. In other words, as the current goes up, the inductance goes down. This makes it hard to rate the inductance of a coil since it changes with current. That's why I like to actually put it on a scope and measure the time based on a 14v supply.

As a side note, air-core coils almost never reaches saturation so they are used if you need an inductor that will not change with current (as in filters etc.) But for flyback ignitions we need an iron core to make the coil much smaller.

Throwing in a ballast resistor alters the time constant of a coil too. So adding a resistor, while it will reduce the final current in the coil, and the final energy stored in the coil, it does shorten the time at which the coil will reach current saturation (and it will likely prevent the coil from reaching magnetic saturation). So if you know you are going to run a ballast, you will not need as much dwell time. Ballasts are a bad situation all around, but are a necessary evil on old distributor-points cars where the coils have to be very low impedance, but might have to deal with the ignition being left on. If your ignition shuts off anytime the motor stops then you should never really need a ballast (unless the igniter is under engineered or you can't get the right coils etc., which may explain the usage on the Kaws).

So how to select the appropriate coil. Ideally you want one that will reach current saturation in the given dwell time at max RPM. But it must also be able to withstand the dwell given to it at lower RPMs without burning up. So there is a compromise to be made if the dwell time is not constant (as in most of the ignitions we talk of... points, Dyna S, Dyna III, and Kaw mech-advance transistorized). I believe the best route is to measure the time needed by the coil to reach 1/2 of it's current saturation level at 14v. Then that should be the dwell time at 10,000 RPM. This is my own concoction, but the factory Kaw electronic ignition seems to follow this formula as well.

Then based on that selection, make sure the coil is rated to handle the dwell time at lower RPMs. Also make sure the igniter can handle the saturation current with the coil and the dwell duty-cycle. A really fast coil, will typically have a huge current saturation level, so if there is no current limiter or dwell control, the coil will burn up (and possibly take the igniter with it). A really small coil has similar concerns since it doesn't have the bulk needed to deal with the heat when the dwell is too long. (but it shouldn't harm the igniter unless the coil shorts out while melting.)

Now, how does this apply to our coils we discuss? Well, if we assume we are using the factory Kaw electronic ignition with mechanical advance, the dwell varies from about 100 degrees at 1200 rpm to about 120 degrees at 10,000 rpm. This means it's about 14 msec at 1200 to about 2 msec at 10,000. The factory coils, which I measured at 2.7 ohm for the pair I was testing, reach half their current in about 1.6 or 1.7 msec. That's just about perfect. The 3-ohm accels, which I did not time-measure, but only calculated based on meter measurements, require about 3.3 msec. That's a little slow to use on the Kaw ignition, but apparently still works, because that's what I've been using. I'd rather use the 2.2 Dynas, if money was no object. (Or I could just make a circuit to extend the dwell on the KZ ignition... that's more likely to happen than me dishing out money on coils )

Ok, now what about the heat issues at lower RPMs? That's a harder factor to quantify, especially since we can assume all designers build in a safety margin. Dyna rates the Dyna S as safe for coils 3 ohms and up, but I know that 2.4 ohm coils were used without damage. Basically, if we're dealing with new, large-size coils from Dyna or Accel, or even Emgo, they will likely handle near constant dwell. This means they can have voltage applied indefinitely without immediate breakage. So there are no worries with the factory kaw ignition since it never applies constant dwell. The Dyna S does when the motor is stopped, and nearly does when the motor is running. This is a major problem when using mini coils designed for systems that closely control the dwell. The Kaw ignition is better for mini coils, but still not perfect.

Ideally, to use the mini coils, you'd want a dwell that changes in a way that the dwell time is constant for all RPMs. That means if the mini coil needs about 2 msec to get to current saturation, the dwell should go from 14 degrees at idle to about 120 degrees at 10,000 RPM. The factory Kaw goes about 100 deg to 120 deg. The dwell using HEI modules goes from about 80 deg to 120 deg.

I can't say why Nology says they have very low impedance coils for systems using 3 ohm coils. Or are they saying only the 2.4 ohm coil is for the 3 ohm system? That's reasonable. But a system designed for 3 ohms would likely melt the .3 and .6 coils, unless the igniter blew up first.

Also, they have to qualify that statement somewhat (mini coils for 3 ohm system). The Dyna S is designed for a 3-ohm minimum, but if you put the mini coil on that system, I would expect the coil to melt. Don't they also specify a dwell control system? The Kaw system has a small amount of dwell control, but not enough to be considered a "dwell-controlled" system.

Thanks loudhvx, I learned a lot from that post. And thanks to all who replied! At the moment I am waiting for some connectors to hook both the electronic ignition and a P-model regulator/rectifier up. Once it is running (I am doing a ground-up refurbishment of the entire bike) I'll post a follow-up in this thread about how it all worked out.

These modifications should be quite simple. The sending coils will bolt right in place of the points plate and they will plug right into the igniter. You will just need the plug for the igniter and ignition coil mating. The other added benefit of the Kawasaki setup is that it consumes a lot less energy than the Dyna.

loudhvx wrote:

To get the link to work, you have to use the bbcode tags for URL. I think the tilda (~) symbol won't allow a regular hyperlink to work.
home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/GPZgmHEImod.html



The only part of the factory ignition that you can't buy brand new is the pickups. The module can be built from that link. Also, in my opinion, the factory pickups, as long as they are not abused, will outlast the Dyna S pickups. The factory pickups are just a coil of wire and a magnet. The Dyna puts integrated electronics right on the timing plate which takes a lot of heat and vibration ... not a great environment to operate in.

However after 30+ years, the pickups are susceptible to moisture. I've been trying to track down a source to replace the actual pickup coils themselves, but they are expensive. Each pickup is about $60 or so, and we need two.

Actually the factory pickups (Pulsing coils) are still available from Ma Kau. This ignition was used on police bikes until they stopped making them in 2005 KZ1000-P24. They still used the same coils and igniter. The pulsing coil # is 59026-1133 and replaces the older # 1002, 1012 which were used from the MKII motors until the 2005 P24.

Those later police bikes didn't use electronic advance? That's wierd... and very archaic.

The electronic advance pickups are not entirely interchangeable with the mech advance ones. They mount differently and they have an internal magnet, as opposed to the earlier seperate magnets. I suppose they might be able to be fabbed up to work. I'm still in the middle of analyzing the elec.-advance pickups and ignition to make an HEI version of that too.

I never even considered the possibility of getting the pickups from Kaw, but I hate to ask the price. I'm one who has to ask which means I can't afford them.

EDIT Holy crap, they did actually use the mechanical advance on all of them and the pulsers are the same part number. :ohmy: I did notice the status was "Cancelled", but good to know there are many more pulsers out there than I thought. It's really only the coils that go bad, so as long as people don't toss the entire assembly, magnets and plates should be plentiful. Thanks Otto.

Actually the status on the police pulsers is active. I just looked it up again. The 1133 # is available and has to be because many police departments still have the bikes. They are available in the entire plate configuration for $118 from Ron Ayers and I believe that Z1E could do even better.

Supplier Information [ Close ]
Part Number Add to Picklist (Qty):

Description: COIL-PULSING
Package Quantity: 1
Item Status Code: Active

I forgot to mention, on my KZ1300 (79) it uses the same pulsers. Because the 1300 plate used to be very expensive I used to buy the 550 plates and just use on of them to replace the one that burned out. For some reason i burned a few of them on the 1300. Or they just went out I'm not sure which. I know that the plates are not the same between the bikes but he coils are identical with identical plugs no mater what bike you had back than.

I've got a kz650 '80s vintage electronic ignition.
Does this mean the 550, 650 750 1000 and 1300 all share the same pickups?
Just good info to have for parts sources.

The 650 and the 750 do for a fact. I would have to see a picture of the 650 pickups to tell you for sure since I am not familiar with them.