Headlight causing electrical problems?

loudhvx wrote:

The Dyna tech help is often wrong. If you have two 4 ohm coils, the Dyna S is going to draw about 6 amps through the coils at idle if the battery is at 12v. I highly doubt the Dyna S module itself is using 1.8 amps. There would be no reason for it to draw that much for it's internal operation.

A higher wattage bulb will result in higher voltage drops in the wiring and connections. There is no way to get around Ohms law. Every connection has some resistance. At normal temperatures, there is no such thing as a conductor with zero resistance. If there is resistance, there is voltage drop. No way around it. The only question is how much drop. The cleaner the connections, the lower the drop.

Well, I'm clearly no expert here, and there's no question that you are. I can't vouch for what the guy from Dynatech said, hell, I didn't understand much of it.

What I can vouch for is, with the harness off the bike and hooked up to a fully charged car battery, after much cleaning, scuffing, replacing, and rechecking again and again, I am getting 14.7 VAC from the fuseblock, I'm getting 14.7 VAC on either side of each connector along the way, I'm getting 14.7 VAC at the headlight connector, whether the bulb is connected, or not, and the headlight now burns brightly.

That's a big improvement from where I was before.

seanof30306 wrote:

OK, here's what I know...

Good luck[/quote]

seannof30306, you're a man reborn and reborn hard.

Good stuff! You probably have all the info you need already. Keep pushing.

Best of success,
Bill

loudhvx wrote:

The Dyna tech help is often wrong. If you have two 4 ohm coils, the Dyna S is going to draw about 6 amps through the coils at idle if the battery is at 12v. I highly doubt the Dyna S module itself is using 1.8 amps. There would be no reason for it to draw that much for it's internal operation.

And I'm pretty sure the Dyna Green coils are 3 Ohm, not 4, and the tech was talking about checking each coil individually, not as a pair.

seanof30306 wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

The Dyna tech help is often wrong. If you have two 4 ohm coils, the Dyna S is going to draw about 6 amps through the coils at idle if the battery is at 12v. I highly doubt the Dyna S module itself is using 1.8 amps. There would be no reason for it to draw that much for it's internal operation.

A higher wattage bulb will result in higher voltage drops in the wiring and connections. There is no way to get around Ohms law. Every connection has some resistance. At normal temperatures, there is no such thing as a conductor with zero resistance. If there is resistance, there is voltage drop. No way around it. The only question is how much drop. The cleaner the connections, the lower the drop.

Well, I'm clearly no expert here, and there's no question that you are. I can't vouch for what the guy from Dynatech said, hell, I didn't understand much of it.

What I can vouch for is, with the harness off the bike and hooked up to a fully charged car battery, after much cleaning, scuffing, replacing, and rechecking again and again, I am getting 14.7 VAC from the fuseblock, I'm getting 14.7 VAC on either side of each connector along the way, I'm getting 14.7 VAC at the headlight connector, whether the bulb is connected, or not, and the headlight now burns brightly.

That's a big improvement from where I was before.

I assume you mean VDC. 14.7 VAC would be a major problem.

Cleaning connections (and leaving them clean ie. no grease) and replacing bad wires is a lot of work, but is still the best remedy for many electrical problems. Congrats on your new found voltage.

If the connections are clean and the wires are good, the voltage drop due to heavier loads (higher wattage bulbs etc) will be minimal.

If you are using two 3 ohm coils, then at idle with battery (and coil voltage) at or above 12v, the Dyna S uses about 8 amps. This is because the Dyna S has both coils "on" for most of the time.

A bike with decent charging system should be able to handle that ok, and most do. The only issue will usually show up if you spend a lot of time idling. Then the battery may get a little low.

VDC, VAC .... whatever.

Ha ha ha ha. I think we've established my level of expertise. Here in Oklahoma, volts is volts.

One question, though. Earlier in this thread, Bill Wilcox said he'd powered his Dyna Green coils and Dyna S ignition on a dedicated circuit, with a 5 amp fuse, which has never blown. While I'm sure there's some headroom there, if he was pulling 8 amps, wouldn't he be blowing fuses?

seanof30306 wrote:

VDC, VAC .... whatever.

Ha ha ha ha. I think we've established my level of expertise. Here in Oklahoma, volts is volts.

One question, though. Earlier in this thread, Bill Wilcox said he'd powered his Dyna Green coils and Dyna S ignition on a dedicated circuit, with a 5 amp fuse, which has never blown. While I'm sure there's some headroom there, if he was pulling 8 amps, wouldn't he be blowing fuses?

That's a very good question. The quick answer is Bill forgot what size fuse he put in, or has the wiring diagram drawn wrong , but knowing Bill, let's rule that out right away.

The full amperage is a little less while running versus motor stopped with ignition on. This is because of duty cycle. When running the coils get turned off for several degrees on each crank rotation. If the coils are only on for 300 degrees (out of 360) then the 8 amps reduces to 6.7A.

This is all assuming 12v across each coil. This does not mean the battery voltage is at 12v, this means the battery voltage is somehwere around 13 or 14, and the positive of the coil is at about 13 or 14, but the negative side (the side connected to the Dyna S) is at about 1 or 2v, so we subtract the 1 or 2 from the positive side of the coil to get roughly 12v.

This is also assuming the coils are 3 ohms exactly. If they get to 3.5 ohms due to heating, the current will be reduced further to 5.7 amps.

If there is just a 1/2 v drop in the wiring, that drops to 5.5amps. And so on.

The numbers can easily vary by quite a significant amount. The 8 amps is the upper limit that would be expected in some ideal situation. Without measuring the actual conditions and allowing for heat etc, it's hard to estimate the exact number, so it's better to err on the high side to prevent getting stranded by a blown fuse.

To get the upper limit, here's approximately what I do. Let's assume the bike was run for a few seconds so the battery voltage is up to 14v, but then the bike stalls. the battery voltage doesn't drop immediately. It takes a second, so lets assume it's 14v for a second. Then let's assume the ignition is still on and the motor stops in a position where both coils are still on. Let's say the Dyna S drops 2v. That gives us 12v on each coil. Let's assume each coil is still relatively cool and they are exactly 3 ohms. Let's also assume we have great wiring and the voltage drop on the wiring is so low we can't measure it (it can't be zero, but can be low enough to not matter). Then simple ohms law tells us we have two coils, each operating at 12v / 3ohms = 4 amps for a total of 8 amps. That would be the likely upper limit. It may be even higher if the Dyna S drops less voltage.

It's been about 10 years since I closely tested a brand new Dyna-III, and I don't know how old the last Dyna-S I tested was. It's possible they have changed the design in some way, but I somehow doubt it.

loudhvx wrote:

seanof30306 wrote:

That's a very good question. The quick answer is Bill forgot what size fuse he put in, or has the wiring diagram drawn wrong , but knowing Bill, let's rule that out right away.

Well, turns out you just plain can't trust nobody! :blush:

Just got back home from a few weeks on the road working and checked my fuse box. So I just have to come clean here... I actually found a 7.5 Amp fuse in my Coil circuit and not a 5 Amp as was my intention. :pinch:

Guess I had no 5 Amp fuses in my work shop at the time... or more likely just plain going blind, go figure. :whistle:

Well, there goes my credibility out the window... as if I ever had any. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I now plan on bumping this up to a 10 Amp fuse for a little safety margin and especially for fewer different value spares in my tank bag.

Best of success,
Bill

PS
I plan on updating my diagrams accordingly.
Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
Bill

Ahhh!
The old thread for electrical on the beautiful KZ650!
Do you have it back together and running for some easy and cheap tests? You will need a 1 30 AMP+ & DC VOLT Meters.
There are many, and I mean many suggestions about how to continue you diagnostics, as well as the specifications for both single and three phase stators, that you have: ALL Posted.
Focus on total current in AMPs that is drawn by your bikes electrical system as a TOTAL, this includes everything on your bike to keep it running/minus the starter, and how much is being generated by any of your 5 stators. Amps and DC volts TOTAL, This Means MAX output rating, of each and at the RPM that the systems were rated at from Kawasaki, Total Rated Output. This will be at 8000 + depending on which, single or three phase you are testing. Single phase being 2 yellow wires from the stator at the connector, and three phase being 3 yellow wires in the connector at the stator. Realizing that the single phase will put out a higher AC voltage if tested at the connector on the pair of the yellows than the three phase with checking at each pair of the three yellows.
So when YOU have the information, Total (AMPs USED) by your Bikes electrical when running, and the Total (AMPs and Voltage DC) made by a Stator of your choice, since you have so many, then at the very least you can make the statement of my bikes charging system is (or Is not) functioning. These smaller differences, if correct are meaningless.
One of the things that I have noticed on differences between bikes I own: There is not just a grounding negative battery cable from the engine block to the - battery terminal, do to the Rubber engine mounts, but also a Black/ Yellow ground wire from the negative battery post to the FRAME of the bike. IS this also on your bike like this? Or do you have only the cable as ground? You say you have added grounds then taken them away, etc. Somewhere, as voltage and current (AMPs) is not making the full LOOP, each and every electrical part requires a Ground as well as the Positive connection, not just the battery.
I think the guy's on this site here have put out info for you well and beyond what most people would need to result in a "Running" bike, you need to dig back in and do some testing with results of what has been asked, AMPS in/ out and what DC volts, measured on the Red/ white R/R wire would be nice.
Since Summer is starting to wind down now maybe it is a winters project for you, as you may need to move to mechanic 3 or 8 or whatever till you find someone with the knowledge of a charging AND operational electrical system.
If you really want to continue with Posting and having (Hopefully) a response that you can use, and understand, please do some more testing of your bike's electrical.
No everyone is Not trying to be confrontational, but it is clear in both threads, and you state that you are sorry for being frustrated and basically "Venting". I would too i I had dumped that kind of cash on a old bike with out a positive result.
Are you with US, and I mean US, all of the guy's have been trying to HELP you. If you really want the help then TEST, as has been suggested in what I see here in what, your first thread with a electrical issue? Test for the TOTAL USE and PRODUCTION, Red/ White wire off of the R/R this will be DC volts, and AMPs.

No credibility lost with me Bill! I don't remember what I had for lunch! :laugh:

Motor Head wrote:

Ahhh!
The old thread for electrical on the beautiful KZ650!
Do you have it back together and running for some easy and cheap tests? You will need a 1 30 AMP+ & DC VOLT Meters.
There are many, and I mean many suggestions about how to continue you diagnostics, as well as the specifications for both single and three phase stators, that you have: ALL Posted.
Focus on total current in AMPs that is drawn by your bikes electrical system as a TOTAL, this includes everything on your bike to keep it running/minus the starter, and how much is being generated by any of your 5 stators. Amps and DC volts TOTAL, This Means MAX output rating, of each and at the RPM that the systems were rated at from Kawasaki, Total Rated Output. This will be at 8000 + depending on which, single or three phase you are testing. Single phase being 2 yellow wires from the stator at the connector, and three phase being 3 yellow wires in the connector at the stator. Realizing that the single phase will put out a higher AC voltage if tested at the connector on the pair of the yellows than the three phase with checking at each pair of the three yellows.
So when YOU have the information, Total (AMPs USED) by your Bikes electrical when running, and the Total (AMPs and Voltage DC) made by a Stator of your choice, since you have so many, then at the very least you can make the statement of my bikes charging system is (or Is not) functioning. These smaller differences, if correct are meaningless.
One of the things that I have noticed on differences between bikes I own: There is not just a grounding negative battery cable from the engine block to the - battery terminal, do to the Rubber engine mounts, but also a Black/ Yellow ground wire from the negative battery post to the FRAME of the bike. IS this also on your bike like this? Or do you have only the cable as ground? You say you have added grounds then taken them away, etc. Somewhere, as voltage and current (AMPs) is not making the full LOOP, each and every electrical part requires a Ground as well as the Positive connection, not just the battery.
I think the guy's on this site here have put out info for you well and beyond what most people would need to result in a "Running" bike, you need to dig back in and do some testing with results of what has been asked, AMPS in/ out and what DC volts, measured on the Red/ white R/R wire would be nice.
Since Summer is starting to wind down now maybe it is a winters project for you, as you may need to move to mechanic 3 or 8 or whatever till you find someone with the knowledge of a charging AND operational electrical system.
If you really want to continue with Posting and having (Hopefully) a response that you can use, and understand, please do some more testing of your bike's electrical.
No everyone is Not trying to be confrontational, but it is clear in both threads, and you state that you are sorry for being frustrated and basically "Venting". I would too i I had dumped that kind of cash on a old bike with out a positive result.
Are you with US, and I mean US, all of the guy's have been trying to HELP you. If you really want the help then TEST, as has been suggested in what I see here in what, your first thread with a electrical issue? Test for the TOTAL USE and PRODUCTION, Red/ White wire off of the R/R this will be DC volts, and AMPs.

Actually, this is only one of many old threads for electrical on the beautiful, red, classic @#$%^&!!! KZ650.

I will gladly test. Once stator output is resolved (it appears to be) I will begin testing on the RR, wich is the next step in the process. Once I am convinced the RR is working properly, I will then move on to the next step in the line.

I have now learned of a way to isolate the RR and test it to confirm it's operating status. I will be posting it in the other thread, which is where I prefer to focus this, for simplicity's sake. I would already have posted it there, but I am instead forced to deal with loudvhx's personal attacks and innacurate statements.

PS (and please, if you answer this, answer it in the other thread) You said: "So when YOU have the information, Total (AMPs USED) by your Bikes electrical when running, and the Total (AMPs and Voltage DC) made by a Stator of your choice". I have asked numerous times how to determine how much power the bike is USING, and have never gotten a clear answer (just as I have asked dozens of times how to determine whether the RR is working properly, and never gotten an answer. I had to go outside this forum to get the ultra-simple test that definitely shows whether the RR is working properly, or not). I do not know how much power the bike is using, and would LOVE it if someone whould explain, in a clear concise manner, how to determine that, rather than sending me off is a dozen different directions.

Seems pretty simple to me. The bike is making X amount of power. The bike is using Y amount of power.

X > Y = GOOD

X < Y = BAD

Don't really understand why in over three years of asking I've never been able to get a clear answer on how to determine Y.

I guess it's like how, in over three years of asking, I've never been able to get a clear answer on how to determine whether a RR is bad, or not, being told again and again that there is no such test, yet, in a 15 minute conversation with Rick, owner of Rick's Motorsport Electrics, I get a simple test that does just that.

seanof30306 wrote:

Motor Head wrote:

...a clear answer on how to determine whether a RR is bad, or not, ... conversation with Rick, owner of Rick's Motorsport Electrics, I get a simple test that does just that.

I'm a little out of the loop with this post... but could you do me a favour and post up the Regulator/Rectifier test procedure you got from Rick. This would be a very valuable contribution.

Best of success,
Bill

Sorry Bill, but if you want some night reading try,
kzrider.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&...ew&catid=4&id=384840
His Stator thread.