Headlight causing electrical problems?

OK, armed with the additional info, here's another suggestion you may not have tried. Remove the headlight from the shell, make sure the battery is charged and measure the battery voltage with everything turned off. Go for a nice long daytime ride without the headlight. Then measure the battery voltage again with everything turned off. If the battery voltage has dropped, there's a problem unrelated to the light. If the battery voltage is the same (or better) the headlight circuit, including switch, connectors, etc. needs to be very carefully tested. Worth a try? Ed

Si!

bill_wilcox100 wrote:

seanof30306 wrote:

-2) ... Disconnecting the headlight nets 12 v at the headlight plug. Plug it back in and it drops to 8 v..."

These are normal readings:
- The first is the no-load or virtual voltage.
- The second is the loaded or actual voltage.

Our job to help you get the second voltage to be within 0.5 Vdc of the first voltage.

Bill,

Thanks for your help. I am a little unclear on this one, though.

When you said: "These are normal readings:
- The first is the no-load or virtual voltage.
- The second is the loaded or actual voltage."

I took that to mean it is normal for the headlight to draw it down from 12v to 8v, but when you said: "Our job to help you get the second voltage to be within 0.5 Vdc of the first voltage."

I took that to mean in a properly operating electrical system, the headlight should only be drawing it down to 11.5v, or so.

Can you straighten me out?

Thanks

All righty then...

If no current is flowing in a circuit, then the voltage read at any point not connected to Ground will be the source voltage:
Translation - If your power is not switched ON then all the wire from the battery to the switch will be at Battery (+) because nothing is drawing current so none of the resistive contacts will drop any voltage. This is virtual or no-load voltage.

However, if ANY current is flowing in a circuit then the voltage read at any point not connected to Ground will be the source voltage minus any voltage drops lost across any of the resistive contacts between the test point and the Battery (+).
Translation - This is actual or load voltage. The intended load could be Coil(s), Horn, Lights, etc. or any combination thereof, whatever happens to be switched on.

I always worry whenever an explanation includes "thereof". :laugh:

Any better?

Best of success,
Bill

Sigh ..... here is the latest news.

Tim has gone through the entire harness, checking and testing every connector and connection. Everything is just beautiful, everything shrink wrapped and run properly.

Still, even with the battery fully charged the headlight is dim, and showing only 8v. Tim said he believes that is caused by my having the wrong headlight, and wants me to replace it with a 35/50 watt unit, which is what the factory service manual calls for.

Now first, I'm not convinced of this. I've seen many posts from guys upgrading to halogen lights of up to 100 watts, and running heated gloves and suits, GPS units, ipods, etc. The only replacement 7" bulb z1enterprises.com sells is a 6015 50/60w bulb (which is what I think is on my bike now). Tim plugged in another random 7" bulb from another bike in the shop and got the same result: 12v at the fuseblock, 8v at the headlight. The headlight that is on the bike is a Wagner. The only number on it is "201" I've searched it, but can find nothing. However, in my searching, I could only find one Wagner 7" sealed beam headlight. It's a 6014. While none of the Wagner 6014s I found listed the wattage. the other 6014 bulbs I've found from other manufacturers were 60/50w, which is the same as the 6015 bulb z1enterprises.com sells as the only 7" replacement bulb they carry, further reinforcing my suspicion that the bulb is not the problem.

Earlier, someone suggested the headlight connector might be bad, and Tim checked it and found nothing, but the gauge lights are dim, too, and the wiring splits off to them before the connector, doesn't it?

The two naked blue wires in the headlight bucket I mentioned earlier have been capped off as well, so I don't think they have anything to do with this.

So, I picked the bike up today. It started right up and ran beautifully, with the exception of the dim headlight (couldn't tell about the gauge lights in the sunlight), which Tim said would be resolved when I got the correct headlight for it. I rode off to a Drs. appointment.

Within less than 10 miles, I ran out of gas (another story, completely my fault). I laid the bike over on it's side to try and get some gas to the petcock side of the tank, stood it up and hit the starter button. It turned over very slowly a few times, then nothing. I tried the kickstarter, but apparently there was no gas in the other side of the tank. I got some gas, put it in, and hit the starter button. Again, it turned over a few times slowly, then nothing. I got it running and drove about 2 miles to the drs, appointment. Afterwards, I came out, hit the starter, and it turned over very, very slowly about once, then nothing. I kickstarted it and rode to another appointment, again about 2 miles away. I came out, hit the starter and not even half a turn before nada. Now, I've been down this road before, and I know what's coming. Soon, it won't have enough juice left to run, so I head home, praying it'll get there before it dies. I make it, but when I shut it off, then hit the starter; absolutely nothing.

Now, before I left Tim's, he mentioned that he thought I ought to replace the battery, which annoyed the flying crap out of me. Yes, the battery in the bike is two years old, but I have literally ridden the bike less than 1000 miles in those two years. For most of that time, the bike has been sitting at the shop, waiting to be fixed.

I'm going to Batteries Plus tomorrow, and if the battery tests bad I will replace it, but the battery is not the problem, it is a symptom. I have had this bike for three years, and have gotten to ride it less than 1500 miles. If I have to buy a battery tomorrow, it will be the fourth new battery I've put in the bike in less than 1500 miles; in slightly less than 3 years.

Whether the battery is new, or not, what happened today is exactly what happens every time. Something is drawing more power than the bike can generate, and it will eventually draw so much power that the bike will not run.

And so, here I am, once again with a dead motorcycle, hundreds of dollars invested in another repair, and nothing to show for it.

I just don't know what to do.

I guess the first thing is the headlight. What should I have on it? I ride at night, mostly, so I want to upgrade as much as possible. Is a KZ650 with a properly functioning electrical system capable of running a 60/50w bulb? If the answer to that is "yes", what would the most a KZ650 with a properly functioning electrical system support? I saw a guy on kz650.info say he ran a Sylvania H6024XV, which is a 65/55w Halogen bulb available at any Pep Boys. If I could run that bulb (assuming a properly functioning electrical sysem), that would seem a perfect solution to me.

UPDATE: Checked the Pep Boys website. h6024 is no longer available. Maybe I need to ask y'all what the best solution is.

Second, I don't know what else to do about this. Tim has thoroughly gone over every inch of this harness, checking every connection, replacing connectors, replacing wires, cleaning up every connection, yet the thing barely went 30 miles today and from lots and lots of experience, I can promise you it didn't have another 20 miles in it.

I don't know Tim, I never meet Tim, I don't want to meet Tim... but from your above post you may have reached the end-of-the-road with what Tim can contribute. :dry:

1) With a load, 12 Vdc at the Fuse box and 8 Vdc across the Light contacts. So Tim, what dropped 4 Vdc? Find that with a METER and you have found at least one of your problems! Repair and or replace and you may be off riding. The Ignition Switch is bad... $20.00 USD to your door and done. Fuse Box acting up (and these buggers really do) $30.00 USD later, some Heat Shrink Tubing, some soldering and swap out for the newer blade type Fuse Box . Want to keep the OEM style Fuse Box Fuse Box, OK, $40.00 USD to your door... then just plug-and-play. You get the idea... time to light a fire under this problem.

2) Battery is discharged so change the a Battery... maybe yes, maybe no. So Tim, what were the results of your Hydrometer test for each cell? All the same, some different, all in the Good zone, some not in the good zone, all cells filled to the proper level, all not, some not, battery charges up fully with no Head Light connected yes/no, what is the charging voltage at Idle (900-1200 RPM) at 4000 RPM)???? Details Tim, where are the details!

Suggestion: Get a decent meter, get a small motorcycle sized Hydrometer, get a small "Battery Tender Jr." Motorcycle battery charger, get a Manual for your model bike and belly-up to the work bench. It may take you a little longer if you have no experience but at least you can start digging yourself out of the hole.

Remember, these bikes are bulletproof and run well for generations if kept within specifications.

Best of success,
Bill

PS
Just a thought here, let members know where you are and you may have one real close to you who can swing by and get another pair of eyes on this one.
Bill

35/50 watt unit, which is what the factory service manual calls for. Versus 6015 50/60w...

Look at it this way....
The low beam current draw of the 6015 bulb is 50watts.
The high beam of the factory bulb is 50watts....

So in either case, they're the same current draw!
Your KZ electrical system should handle this with no issues what so ever... such as your measuring @ 8Vdc...

Try this if not already done so...
* Disconnect the bulb from the connector in the flash head.
* Turn on the ignition switch and headlight for low beam.
* In reference to the head light shell/connector ground, measure the light bulbs prongs for voltage DC...

Is it at +12Vdc or higher pending charged battery voltage...? Should be the same as the battery +/- 500 milli volts (1/2 volt)....

If not, meaning it's at 8-11 Vdc, then the bulb is definitely not your problem...

Now use the battery ground as your DVM reference... Same low voltage or are you now reading higher voltage?
If so, you have a shiza ground...

If ~ +12Vdc at the connector, switch on the high beam, same where +12Vdc on the high beam connector blade?

OMR

Bill, I'm in Tulsa, OK, but right now wish I was a Canadian. ; )

I would gladly throw the bike onto a trailer and take it a couple of hundred miles if it meant finally getting this resolved, and I wouldn't expect anyone to work for free.

Thanks for the kind words, but Hell's Bells... it was probably made in Nebraska anyways!

Now take a deeeeep breath and move forward step by step by step by step... I/we have ALL been there, trust me. :blush:

You CAN do this and we can help.

IMHO, The guys have given you the type of advise that Tool-Time-Tim can only dream of... use it.

So what's your first step going to be?


Best of success,
Bill

PS
No Tim's were injured or killed in the making of this thread. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Bill

Honestly, my first step is to go back to Tim and get him to make good on the money he's been paid for this. He is a friend, and a decent, honest man. I have no doubt he'll do it. His problem is he has so many people after him, and has such a kind heart that he can't say "no", so he ends up overcommitting himself. We all know people like that.

I have failed to do a good job of managing him on this. I'm going to do better, and I'm going to start by approaching this as a manager of some 25 years experience rather than as a friend, and lay out a specific plan that must be methodically followed, with specific benchmarks along the way. I have been gritting my teeth to avoid hurting his feelings, but the truth is, if we really are friends, then his feelings should not be hurt as long as I approach him respectfully. Respectfully, but firmly.

Here is my plan. Please feel free to tell me where I need to adjust it.

1. Determine whether the battery is truly bad with a hydrometer. I want the specific results for each cell. if bad, replace.

Question, is there a gel battery that fits a KZ650?

2. Determine whether the charging system is working properly, and, if not, why?

2a. Stator. Less than 1,000 miles on it since it was rewound by Ricks. New mini-harness and male/femal connectors from Ricks, too. Clymer outlines both bench tests for resistance and output tests while running for the stator, there is no reason this stator should not be at the optimal end of the spectrum on all tests. If it's not, I want to know why, and I want that resolved. I also want the specific results of those tests.

2b. Regulator/rectifier. If memory serves me correctly, there are 6 resistors on the regulator/rectifier; 3 per side. Each time the stator has gone out, it has blown all the resistors on one side, I don't recall which. Clymer outlines bench tests for resistance and output tests while running at both idle, and at 3,000 rpm. I want the results of those tests, and if they're not optimal, I want to know why, and I want it resolved. I will not plug yet another 125.00 regulator/rectifier into this thing until I know why it has been eating them.

3. Dim Headlight/12v-8v drop. It seems to me if there are slight drops at every junction along the way, then the obvious solution is to eliminate each drop as it occurs, working towards the headlight.

Question ... can the handlebar switches, ignition switch, etc. be bypassed, or "jumped around". If so, that would seem to me to be the quickest way to eliminate suspects. if you jump around the ignition switch and still get 8v at the headlight, I'd think you probably haven't found your problem.

4. Handlebar switches. The intermittent (and independent) failures of the horn, blinkers and hi/lo headlight switch are enough to warrant a switch rehab of their own accord. The fact that the headlight runs through that switch just makes it even more imperative that these switches be resolved. I've been asking about this since the first time I brought the bike in, now it must happen.

5. Headlight repowering mod. I actually don't want to do this till the problem is found and resolved. While it may itself resolve the problem, there should not be a 4v drop at the headlight, and bypassing it still leaves a big problem in my wiring which could easily cause problems down the road. I view the headlight repowering mod as a better way to wire the headlight, not as a cure for the problems I'm having.

How is the plan so far? What else do I need?

If not already done to assist diagnosis, could jump to known good fully charged car battery (car engine NOT running) and repeat voltage testing while jumped, especially at headlight socket.

Good Fortune!

seanof30306 wrote:

Question ... can the handlebar switches, ignition switch, etc. be bypassed, or "jumped around". If so, that would seem to me to be the quickest way to eliminate suspects. if you jump around the ignition switch and still get 8 v at the headlight, I'd think you probably haven't found your problem.

How is the plan so far? What else do I need?

IMHO, yes you can bypass and go directly. However, your bypass wire MUST have an inline fuse holder with a 10-15 Amp fuse. I had many issues with both my Handlebar Switch Gear.

Plan looks good.

Patton's idea of using a Car Battery is well worth considering... and it's free! :woohoo:

Best of success,
Bill