Timing Help Needed

So I've never had a vehicle with points before so I'm struggling to get the timing correct. I'll try to post some pictures if necessary.

Anyways, I've set the gap to 0.012in (0.3mm) at the T mark (the Clymer says at the largest opening which seems to be roughly at the T mark).

I've moved both plates all the way to the right (clockwise) as that gives me the least resistance with an ohm-meter (but not 0), but my ignition is still firing too early at idle.

When checking the timing with a timing gun I see the following:
2 and 3 are firing at the 3 mark at idle.
1 and 4 are firing between the F and 4 mark at idle.

Any ideas?

Looked at the Haynes manual and it mentions rotating the base plate if they don't travel enough. I'll give it a try!

That did it for the idle timing. However, I'm not seeing the timing advance with RPM's at all.

When I took off the points plate, I can move the arms on the advancer, but they don't return without help. The advancer probably needs some lubrication, but where do you lubricate it? Neither manual I have seems to be very clear on this point.

DoubleDub wrote:

So I've never had a vehicle with points before so I'm struggling to get the timing correct. I'll try to post some pictures if necessary.

Anyways, I've set the gap to 0.012in (0.3mm) at the T mark (the Clymer says at the largest opening which seems to be roughly at the T mark).

I've moved both plates all the way to the right (clockwise) as that gives me the least resistance with an ohm-meter (but not 0), but my ignition is still firing too early at idle.

When checking the timing with a timing gun I see the following:
2 and 3 are firing at the 3 mark at idle.
1 and 4 are firing between the F and 4 mark at idle.

Any ideas?

Should ignore the T mark which isn't used for ignition timing.

Each points set is held by two screws (through slotted holes) to a back plate. Each back plate is held by two screws (through slotted holes) to the round mounting plate. The round mounting plate is held by three screws (through slotted holes) to the engine case. A cam fits through the advancer. The heels of the points ride the cam to open and close. A little oil soaked felt pad lubes the cam so the heels don't wear out so fast.

Preliminary -- If points are dirty or pitted, clean and dress the contact surfaces. Can pull very fine sandpaper through the contacts while gently pressing them together. A double fold strip works well to have grit on both sides when pullig through. Spray with contact cleaner (or household rubbing alcohol).

1st -- Adjust gaps -- Do this separately for each points set. Turn crankshaft clockwise using 17 mm wrench on the "fake" nut to widest points opening and adjust gap separately for each set of points at 0.3-0.4mm (.012-.016 inch). Never attempt to hand-rotate the crankshaft by using the smaller bolt head that screws into the end of the crankshaft. Each points set has two base screws to very slightly loosen thereby allowing movement to open or close gap, then retighten after setting gap. The widest gap happens when the heel is resting on the highest part of the cam. At this stage nothing but the gap has been adjusted. But this is important because proper gap does affect the subsequent timing procedure. And other screws have remained tight.

2nd -- Set Timing -- Each points set has two mounting screws and pry slots which can be used with strobe light (after slightly loosening the two mounting screws) to align the respective F marks with the timing mark. But if the adjusting plate doesn't travel far enough to allow correct adjustment, then loosen the three mounting plate screws and move the round mounting plate.

3rd -- Tighten and recheck --Tighten all screws and recheck timing with strobe light.

Also, check to assure proper operation of the advancer unit. If removed for cleaning and lubing, be sure the cam unit is replaced correctly and not 180 degrees off. With engine running, and using timing light, watch the advancer move back and forth as rpm's are varied by blipping the throttle.

Also good to have a fan blowing onto the cylinders while setting the timing.

Using a timing light with engine running is called dynamic timing, which is the most accurate.

Using an ohmmeter or light bulb with engine not running to determine when the point contacts separate (hopefully at the appropriate F mark) is called static timing, which should be in the ballpark enough to start the engine and follow up with a timing light.

Good luck.

Thanks, Patton. Things are much better, but I guess I'm unclear at what point is the widest for gap adjustment. I was using the T mark (realizing it's actually TDC) as a reference as it "appeared" that the points were the furthest apart at the point.

I was unable to remove the advancer unit as my 17mm wrench is too wide to get a good grip on the 13mm nut. After manually opening and closing it, it does appear to be advancing when I use the timing light now. It definitely was not before.

One thing I do notice about the advancer is that it doesn't seem to snap back as quickly when I let off the throttle as when I rev the throttle. Is this normal?

Some light oil like sewing machine oil will work on the mechanical ignition advancer. Put it on the pivot areas and where the springs attach. A drop or two should be enough.

The advancer should return when you move it with the engine stopped. If not, it's time to remove it and figure out why.

DoubleDub wrote:

...I'm unclear at what point is the widest for gap adjustment. I was using the T mark (realizing it's actually TDC) as a reference as it "appeared" that the points were the furthest apart at the point.

I was unable to remove the advancer unit as my 17mm wrench is too wide to get a good grip on the 13mm nut. After manually opening and closing it, it does appear to be advancing when I use the timing light now. It definitely was not before.

One thing I do notice about the advancer is that it doesn't seem to snap back as quickly when I let off the throttle as when I rev the throttle. Is this normal?

Just use only the 17mm nut to hand-turn the crank. Usually easier to do with the sparkplugs removed so compression isn't interferring while fixing the exact desired crank position.

The marks are immaterial when setting the gap. Just rotate the crank until the highest part of the cam is under the heel, which is the widest setting. Then gap from there, ignoring the advancer marks.

Until removing the advancer, shouldn't need to even touch the 13mm bolt head (which holds the advancer).

Viewed under the timing light, the advancer should instantly move back and forth when rpm is varied from idle by blipping the throttle.

Here's a pic that might be helpful. Note that the points cam isn't shown in this pic.

Points on left have black signal wire (aka trigger wire) to ignition coil firing outside #1/4 sparkplugs.

Points on right have green signal wire (aka trigger wire) to ignition coil firing inside #2/3 sparkplugs.

Good Luck!

[Click on image to enhance view]

Here's a pic of the advancer.

The F mark means "Fire."

Both #1/4 sparkplugs fire simultaneously from the coil getting signaled from the black wire on left-hand points.

And both #2/3 sparkplugs fire simultaneously from the coil getting signaled from the green wire on right-hand points.

The coil fires just as the points open.

Good Luck!

[Click on image to enhance view]

Thanks, I guess I need some more light so I can see where the cam is at its tallest. Also sounds like I need to lubricate the advancer some.

Thanks for the help!

DoubleDub wrote:

That did it for the idle timing. However, I'm not seeing the timing advance with RPM's at all.

When I took off the points plate, I can move the arms on the advancer, but they don't return without help. The advancer probably needs some lubrication, but where do you lubricate it? Neither manual I have seems to be very clear on this point.

On mine, you have to take the advancer out to clean and lube it. Yours may be gunked up with old grease or rust.

I just had to fix this on my 750. If the advancer is not following the proper advance curve, your bike will run like crap. I had to make new springs for mine.

CHECK THIS: If the advancer arms have play at rest, the springs are stretched and won't hold any tension at idle. That throws the whole thing off: if you set it to the F mark at idle, timing will be wrong at the high RPM mark. If you set it on at the high RPM mark, it will be wrong at idle. In both cases, it won't follow the advance curve shown in the FSM.

DoubleDub wrote:

...need some more light so I can see where the cam is at its tallest....

Yep -- more light!

It may be easier to observe the contacts as they separate and spread to determime the widest gap beween them as the points open and close, as this widest gap position is the target for setting the gap. Marks on the advancer and position of the advancer may just be ignored at this stage. Because here, only the gap is being set, not the timing.

See pic below.

Good Luck!

[Click on image to enhance view]

Maybe there's a difference in the procedure compared to Kawi procedure/explanation...

This is right out of the Kawi Shop Manual for the 1976 KZ 900....