'77 KZ 650 wiring meltdown woes

I'm having serious electrical problems with my '77 KZ 650 C1 with a '78 C2 motor and a Martek 440 electronic ignition. I bought it as kind of a basket case off craigslist for $100. It had been stored outdoors without running for the last 4 years. I cleaned 'er up and changed the oil, hooked up the battery out of my '83 Honda V65 Magna, checked to see she had spark (she did), and shot some starter fluid down the carbs to see if she'd start. She did, briefly, and sounded strong. I proceeded to clean the gas tank, petcock, and diasassembled carbs/cleaned them. This next part is hard to admit, because in all my years of wrenching on vehicles I have never down something so utterly stupid (to be sure,I've had my share of braindead moments, yet this particular incident takes first place in the great Bonehead Mechanic Hall Of Shame), but the next time I hooked up the Magna battery to it, because I was distracted, I hooked up the terminals wrong,i.e positive-to-negative and negative-to-positive, which caused my wiring to melt and smoke.:ohmy: Went through my wiring, which didn't look too bad (a couple of spots where the insulation melted off), tried to mend with some electrical tape. Hooked the battery up correctly, still shorting out, no power, no lights, nothing but hot wiring. Disconnected the regulator /rectifier, presto, I have lights, horn, starter, all working. No burnt fuses. So I replaced the reg/rec (rr) with a used unit identical to my original off ebay thinking this would fix it. No dice, the problem remains. Check resistance on both rr's with a multimeter: both appear bad. I hooked up a tester light to my 2 yellow generator wires; the light lit up. The problem seems to reside with the rr because when I disconnect the battery from it (the rr) all the lights-headlight,blinkers,stoplight,indicators-horn, and starter work fine. Could I have rotten luck and bought a bad rr? Or is the wiring harness shot (I've been through it several times with a fine tooth comb and can't find any obvious shorts, plus it seems to work fine when the rr is disconnected), or could I have damaged something else in the system (CDI box maybe?) when I idiotically hooked the battery up wrong? Please help me, I'm going loco :blink: !

Am unclear as to whether engine will run with or without rr connected. Or whether wiring still smokes when rr is connected.

If not already done, and if engine will run with rr connected, could check charging system while engine running by measuring voltage across battery terminals. Look for 12+ volts at idle and 14+ volts at 3000 rpm.

As known, rectifier is supposed to convert ac current from alt to dc and reg is supposed to limit charging voltage to battery. Remaining electrical system, chassis and ignition, basically operates from the battery.

I don't know how to test the Martek unit other than visual inspection of spark quality while cranking over the engine with ign turned ON.

Perhaps short in connection between battery and rr. Others will have better advice.

Might be time to consider Dyna-S and new rec/reg combo unit from Z1E.

Good Luck!

Thanks for your help Patton. To answer your questions, the bike doesn't seem to be getting any spark with rr disconnected, which makes sense because the two yellow generator wires go into the rr. If you disconnect those 2 wires you obviously aren't gonna get any spark. There are a total of 4 wires that connect to the rr: the two yellow gen wires, a white/red stripe wire that connects to the positive side of the battery, and a black wire which connects to a black/yellow stripe wire that attaches to lighting system and to ground. I can't connect the white/red stripe rr wire that goes to the + battery because as soon as I do that the wiring gets hot (if I leave it connected long enough it'll melt the wires and cause a fire) and I lose all power, including lights, horn, and starter. I can hook up everything but the white/red stripe wire, and lighting system, horn, and starter works, but I get no spark. This is very confusing because it would seem to indicate a bad rr and not bad wiring. If the wiring is bad then I would think that I would have problems with the lights, horn and starter, which work perfectly as long as there is no power connected to the rr.

The 77 650 has a regulator and a rectifier if I am not mistaken. Later they had the reg/recs. Also the 77 650 had a different alternator. I believe a 3 phase? They changed them for 78 and later. Hope that helps and is correct.

Cychotic wrote:

...bike doesn't seem to be getting any spark with rr disconnected, which makes sense because the two yellow generator wires go into the rr. If you disconnect those 2 wires you obviously aren't gonna get any spark. There are a total of 4 wires that connect to the rr: the two yellow gen wires, a white/red stripe wire that connects to the positive side of the battery, and a black wire which connects to a black/yellow stripe wire that attaches to lighting system and to ground. I can't connect the white/red stripe rr wire that goes to the + battery because as soon as I do that the wiring gets hot (if I leave it connected long enough it'll melt the wires and cause a fire) and I lose all power, including lights, horn, and starter. I can hook up everything but the white/red stripe wire, and lighting system, horn, and starter works, but I get no spark. This is very confusing because it would seem to indicate a bad rr and not bad wiring. If the wiring is bad then I would think that I would have problems with the lights, horn and starter, which work perfectly as long as there is no power connected to the rr.

With a good charged battery, bike is susposed to crank up and run until draining the battery without even having an alternator or a rectifier or a voltage regulator. Which is akin to running a "total loss" electrical system sometimes used in racing to eliminate weight and inertia of alternator (and may gain addition cornering clearance on left side by also eliminating the alternator cover).

Should help in diagnosis by remembering that the alternator, rectifier and regulator, have but one goal in life, being to keep the battery charged. The chassis electrics (lights, etc.) and ignition (coils, plugs, etc.) depend on and draw from the battery, and remain fully functional so long as the battery is providving sufficient current, and are unconcerned with whatever is keeping the battery charged.

Perhaps connecting the battery to the voltage regulator is permitting a short somewhere within the charging system, but imo would not trigger a short in chassis or ignition wiring or components which seem operational absent any connection between battery and charging system components.

Good Luck!

Thanks again for the help fellas. The bike is a '77 KZ 650 C1, and the motor is out of a '78 C2, so it's got the single phase permanent magnet generator. To complicate things even further, it's got an old aftermarket electronic ignition called a Martek 440 (isn't made anymore). The motor originally had points ignition. I tried uploading a C2 wiring diagram from KZ650.info to help illustrate what I'm saying, but the file was too big and KZrider.com wouldn't let me do it. I don't know how to run the bike without the rr as the two yellow generator wires connect to it. If you look at the wiring diagram, you'll see what I mean. I tried turning the motor over with just the two yellow gen wires and black ground wire connected to the rr with the white/red stripe wire to battery disconnected (it's only when this wire is connected that the system shorts out and overheats), and I got no spark. It's encouraging that you think I haven't damaged any of my ignition components Patton, and I want to believe that if I buy a new rr my problems will be solved, but I don't want to spend $80 on a new rr, only to ruin it as soon as I connect it to the battery. I'd like to try starting the bike without the rr but I don't know how to hook up the wires without it. Anybody have any ideas how I can get ignition spark without the rr(rectifier/regulator)?

Cychotic wrote:

... any ideas how I can get ignition spark without the rr(rectifier/regulator)?

With ignition ON, supposed to have positive battery voltage reaching both coils. And this obtains regardless of whether the charging system is functional or even connected at all. As the source of the positive voltage to the coils is the battery and not the charging system.

And chassis electrics (lights, horns, starter, etc.) are separate from the ignition system.

Under what conditions is spark visible at plug tips? (plug removed, all plug wires connected, with plug base held against engine with ignition switch ON and engine cranked over (not started up and running).

If no spark on plug under any conditions, am wondering if Martec may have been damaged, because thinking there's supposed to be a battery positive wire from Martec providing power to the coils when the ignition is ON.

Is the old point plate available for testing purposes to by-pass the Martec and run temporary hot wire direct from positive battery terminal to coils, all with charging system (alt, r/r) completely disconnected?

Btw, ignition system doesn't give a hoot about which type generator in being used in the charging system.

Good Luck!

Shows you how little I know about electrical systems. Thank you for your patience, Patton, and deciding to still help me out despite my bonehead questions. Gonna check the coils today and we'll go from there. I may have a bad ignition switch or short somewhere thereabouts as I had a weird intermittent spark issue before I hooked up the battery wrong and fried the system-I'd only occasionally get steady spark turning 'er over with key switched to on-most times I could only get a spark by moving the key from off-to-on-to-park. With each movement of the key I'd get a single, fat, blue spark. Now that I know that the rectifier/gen is separate from the ignition system, I'll see if I can repeat that procedure to get a spark. I hate dealing with electrical issues, but I'm learning.

A good multimeter that can measure OHMS for continuity,AMPS for current flow, and VOLTS for potential, can be purchased through several places like Radio Shack,Home Depot,Lowes,Sears and any good electronic supply store.

You really don't need all the bells and whistles that some multimeters offer, just basic measurements.

A tip: never check voltage when the meter is set on OHMS; it will fry the movement and ruin the meter. When set on OHMS the unit is powered by it's internal battery(usually 9 volts or so).

Cychotic wrote:

...Gonna check the coils today...may have a bad ignition switch or short somewhere thereabouts as I had a weird intermittent spark issue before I hooked up the battery wrong and fried the system-I'd only occasionally get steady spark turning 'er over with key switched to on-most times I could only get a spark by moving the key from off-to-on-to-park. With each movement of the key I'd get a single, fat, blue spark. Now that I know that the rectifier/gen is separate from the ignition system, I'll see if I can repeat that procedure to get a spark....

could only get a spark by moving the key from off-to-on-to-park. With each movement of the key I'd get a single, fat, blue spark. -- that's okay, and not unusual. So that part of the Martec black box seems to be functioning okay by allowing battery voltage to coils when ignition is ON. And would indicate that coils and high tension loop (coil secondary winding plug wires, plug caps, and plugs) are okay, but ohm-checking them anyhow is a good idea.

Might be wrong, but guessing Martec has "pick-ups" under the points cover supposed to work through the black box to cause the coils to fire. Perhaps such pick-ups were already failing or maybe fried when the battery was reverse connected. Failure would have same effect as oem points failing to open, which results in no spark at plugs.

If not already done, could examine components and wiring under the points cover for any obvious damage or adjustment needed. Entire Martec system must be functional to provide properly timed signals to the coils (which is same as old points functioned).

With known battery power reaching coils when ignition is ON, lack of consistent plug spark while cranking engine over indicates failure of timing signals to coils.

Replacing the entire Martec system with Dyna-S would at least assure correctly timed signals to the coils. Or replacing with an old properly functioning points plate and cam.

However, the above likely will not resolve the short when white/red is connected to battery.

The wiring diagram shows a single connector whereby the red/white from positive battery terminal connects to a wire into the rectifier (or perhaps rec/reg combo unit). May disconnect red/white here to avoid any shorting now present through a damaged charging system component. With some luck, perhaps this disconnect will resolve the short when white/red is connected to battery.

The wiring diagram also shows red/white wire from positive battery terminal to 20 amp fuse and from there a ?? color wire to the ignition switch.

Could be a short anywhere along the line from the positive battery terminal to the ignition switch, in the switch itself, or in various wires and switches between ignition switch and coils. The red/yellow wire carries positive battery voltage to the coil primary terminals.

Good Luck!

Update: it's getting power to the coils, however I still can only get spark by turning key rapidly from off-to-on and back again (same problem I had before I fried the system by switching the battery leads). I think this has nothing to do with the battery debacle, as the problem existed before that incident occurred. Coils tested fine (I do own a cheap multimeter), as did the ignition switch. Thinking of replacing wire harness and buying used point/condenser setup off ebay. I would really like to keep the old electronic ignition, though, and I can't afford a Dyna-S system. I bought this bike for $100 off craigslist, it hadn't ran in 4 years and had been stored outdoors. It was in rough, but complete shape. I cleaned it up, changed the oil and filter, put a fresh battery in it, checked spark; spark was great. Before cleaning gas tank, petcock and carburetors, I removed the gas tank and shot some ignition fluid down the carbs, kicked her over, and she started, and for those brief moments before she ran out of fuel, she sounded great. Started it once more on ignition fluid just to be sure it wasn't a fluke, and proceeded to remove and disassemble carbs and gas tank for cleaning. When I put everything back together was when I developed the spark problem. Don't understand it, as at that point I hadn't messed with the electrical system. I've already had the ignition components that replaced the point system off, and everything looks fine. I'm going to have another look at that part of the system. I think you may be right Patton, I have a hunch that's where the problem is. Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Check the main wire harness junction under the tank (big lump). On my 79' the connectors had rotted to the point they had shorts and all types of odd troubles in there. I rebuilt the entire mess and no more troubles.